[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that 60+ years of this sh1t will cause reactions, because for the millionth time, yesterday didn't happen in a vacuum and your framing is pretty pathetic.

I've never claimed to be an expert. I've said more than once that everything I've said in here can be checked and verified by individual posters (if that's how they want to spend their evenings or get their kicks), which I think is pretty intellectually honest and engaging. I want people to try and prove me wrong. But also by your own acknowledgement, I've been talking about this situation for a long time.

I intended to call you uncurious, but I never intended to call you uneducated, so genuine apologies if I've either misspoke, or you've misinterpreted my posts. That's on me either way, so my bad, but I can't be arsed to read back through this conversation to check. I regularly tell people "that's fair" or something along those lines, when they make a good point against my own, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I'm a peaceful dude. I don't want anyone to be at war with anyone else, but I support Ukraine's right to defend itself and fight back, and I support the Palestinians right to defend itself and fight back. I don't apologise for any wooliness of any statement, because I'm pretty sure that anyone that semi-knows me, including you, would never suggest I support murder and rape of any people,

Well indeed hence my genuine surprise that you have been apparently quite blasé about it.

I've deliberately tried to keep the discussion by and large to yesterday because the point is that you do not need to be an expert to be appalled by what Hamas did yesterday. You do not need any prior knowledge of the conflict. Fair enough we could have that discussion if we were talking about an attack on Israel's military bases, or they had only gone after combatants, or even if it was just the rockets that they usually launch. But the way in which the attack was carried out was not warfare, it was not 'fighting back'. It was brazen war crimes with innocent people as the primary victim, something that was subsequently celebrated. The point at issue is the manner of the attack, not simply the fact they carried it out. There have been plenty of terrorist and guerilla groups in the past who would not have resorted to such acts and who have respected the distinction between civilian and combatant. Hamas did not.