[GoldGlitter]

Originally Posted by GlitterUK

Khaled is a decent bloke. He is really refreshing to see someone like that in the house. It is a shame to see so many people question his character with zero/very little to back it up.

He has been through a lot in the house - targeted for no reason and dealt with it like a champ. Hope he makes the final but if the Regina fans are as bad as Regina he sadly won't make it.

Many people question his character with zero/very little to back it up. In tonights show he said he was going with his gut feeling about Lily. Ali gave examples of why she thought he wasnt being genuine.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

He’s shown nothing which indicates he is. The house aren’t exactly meek either, so if he was that would have debated amongst them.

Exactly this. To suggest he might be homophobic seems a far reach for me when there’s no evidence we’ve seen to suggest that. To gravitate to people you feel more comfortable with is natural, and we’ve also seen him interacting with others too.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

He's not done or said anything to indicate being homophobic. Between that, Ali being accused of being racist and Marcello being likened to a sex offender, people are going way overboard. There's disliking a housemate and then there's smearing their character with zero basis.

Perfectly said.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I would actually agree that it does, I think that it only falls into misandry if you say all men have it, but then so does toxic feminity.

Which we see clearly in Ali.

But, then, she always accuses others of what she herself is as we have seen.

Ironically, there’s a psychological term for that!

[Glenn.]

It’s not a vibe I’ve got from him

[UserSince2005]

I see him bending over for the right man.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

I see him bending over for the right man.

C'mon now, in the same way people shouldn't invalidate Ali's sexuality, people also shouldn't invalidate Khaled's.

[smudgie]

I can’t see it myself.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

He's not done or said anything to indicate being homophobic. Between that, Ali being accused of being racist and Marcello being likened to a sex offender, people are going way overboard. There's disliking a housemate and then there's smearing their character with zero basis.

Exactly!

Plus the OP isn't questioning the motives of Nathan and Dean hanging around the girls and not so much with the straight men.

So to me it does just seem like it's an unfair attack on Khaled.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Well, agree to disagree.

I personally think that Ali has issues with men too.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Toxic masculinity does exist, and it doesn't make someone a misandrist for acknowledging it.

I don't know, it sounds like a Misandrist on Twitter.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I don't know, it sounds like a Misandrist on Twitter.

What does, saying that toxic masculinity exists?

As a man, some toxic masculinity examples I see regularly from men are:

• not expressing their feelings for fear of shame or mocking

• mocking or shaming men for expressing their feelings

• refusing to pull their weight around the house

• not letting their son play with dolls or wear pink

• consistently not control their anger

• acting like their wife/girlfriend is a weight around their neck in front of their mates

• being uncomfortable around gay men

• believing men should be in financial control in a relationship

• mocking therapy

Now some of these are acted out by women too, so you may ask what makes these examples of toxic masculinity rather than just toxic behaviours, and I think it's the intentions behind them - most of these sorts of actions when acted out by men are because it makes them feel like less of a man. The actions are linked to the maleness, rather than despite it. People who behave like this often define manliness with physical strength, power and a set of binary rules from long ago. and nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I am an advocate for men, I think there are many things that men are victim to in society that harm them and often these are directly from women. I also think toxic femininity exists, too and can be equally damaging.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

• mocking or shaming men for expressing their feelings

• consistently not control their anger

• acting like their wife/girlfriend is a weight around their neck in front of their mates

• believing men should be in financial control in a relationship

[/LIST]

I know that you acknowledge toxic feminity as well, which is good, but I feel that we need to just start referring to these negative behaviours as just toxic personality aspects or something. Labelling most of these as 'toxic male' or 'toxic female' just seems like extra work when there is so much overlap.

I also think some others in your list are outdated and just not the common behaviours of the majority of men these days and are mainly pushed as a thing now by anti male feminist aligned platforms.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I know that you acknowledge toxic feminity as well, which is good, but I feel that we need to just start referring to these negative behaviours as just toxic personality aspects or something. Labelling most of these as 'toxic male' or 'toxic female' just seems like extra work when there is so much overlap.

I also think some others in your list are outdated and just not the common behaviours of the majority of men these days and are mainly pushed as a thing now by anti male feminist aligned platforms.

I do appreciate these are behaviours in both men and women, but I think what turns something into a gender-led toxic behaviour is the reasoning for the behaviour and quite often it's linked to them acting that way because they think it's a threat to their masculinity to not behave that way.

I do also agree that many of these sorts of behaviours are dying out thankfully, but I do also think that the rise in popularity of people like Andrew Tate is creating a bit of an uptick in toxic behaviour in young men.

But I do understand your points, too.

[Beso]

Outdated mumbo jumbo.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by BBXX

What does, saying that toxic masculinity exists?

As a man, some toxic masculinity examples I see regularly from men are:

• not expressing their feelings for fear of shame or mocking

• mocking or shaming men for expressing their feelings

• refusing to pull their weight around the house

• not letting their son play with dolls or wear pink

• consistently not control their anger

• acting like their wife/girlfriend is a weight around their neck in front of their mates

• being uncomfortable around gay men

• believing men should be in financial control in a relationship

• mocking therapy

Now some of these are acted out by women too, so you may ask what makes these examples of toxic masculinity rather than just toxic behaviours, and I think it's the intentions behind them - most of these sorts of actions when acted out by men are because it makes them feel like less of a man. The actions are linked to the maleness, rather than despite it. People who behave like this often define manliness with physical strength, power and a set of binary rules from long ago. and nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I am an advocate for men, I think there are many things that men are victim to in society that harm them and often these are directly from women. I also think toxic femininity exists, too and can be equally damaging.

…I really like your post/thoughts a lot and it’s provoking lots of thoughts for me so I’ll just take a few bits of it for now, if that’s ok…I’m sure there is mocking and ‘shaming’ of men for expressing their feelings by some but having worked in a primary school environment for most of my working life…?…what I do see is that even in today, there is often still a difference in some of the terminology in a hurt child, for instance…?…and I’m meaning specific to gender…so for instance, there is an inconsolable in that moment child, who is overcome by a physical injury they’ve incurred…?…both children of the same age with the same injury so we could say that two pains are equal and both children requiring equal comfort while their injuries are being assessed etc…?…(…I’ve often found…)…that the terminology for a boy child…(…from some adults because not one size fits all, obviously…)… would/will lean more toward being brave and how amazing they are for being so brave etc…?…whereas with a girl child, the language and terms are just soothing in a different way with no mention of bravery, you know…?…just an understanding of those tears and that feeling of being overwhelmed …I don’t know if I’m explaining this well…but there is a ‘conditioning’ that still happens …it’s often very subtle at a young age but it’s still there…

…anyway, just a thought/observation, if you like that was provoked by your own thoughts…

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…I really like your post/thoughts a lot and it’s provoking lots of thoughts for me so I’ll just take a few bits of it for now, if that’s ok…I’m sure there is mocking and ‘shaming’ of men for expressing their feelings by some but having worked in a primary school environment for most of my working life…?…what I do see is that even in today, there is often still a difference in some of the terminology in a hurt child, for instance…?…and I’m meaning specific to gender…so for instance, there is an inconsolable in that moment child, who is overcome by a physical injury they’ve incurred…?…both children of the same age with the same injury so we could say that two pains are equal and both children requiring equal comfort while their injuries are being assessed etc…?…(…I’ve often found…)…that the terminology for a boy child…(…from some adults because not one size fits all, obviously…)… would/will lean more toward being brave and how amazing they are for being so brave etc…?…whereas with a girl child, the language and terms are just soothing in a different way with no mention of bravery, you know…?…just an understanding of those tears and that feeling of being overwhelmed …I don’t know if I’m explaining this well…but there is a ‘conditioning’ that still happens …it’s often very subtle at a young age but it’s still there…

…anyway, just a thought/observation, if you like that was provoked by your own thoughts…

Thanks Ammi.

Oh, completely. The reason this behaviour exists it because boys are taught to repress emotion from an early age. It's society's fault, not specifically men's, and it's damaging. But as men we should understand this is a toxic behaviour that benefits nobody and do what we can to change it.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do appreciate these are behaviours in both men and women, but I think what turns something into a gender-led toxic behaviour is the reasoning for the behaviour and quite often it's linked to them acting that way because they think it's a threat to their masculinity to not behave that way.

I do also agree that many of these sorts of behaviours are dying out thankfully, but I do also think that the rise in popularity of people like Andrew Tate is creating a bit of an uptick in toxic behaviour in young men.

But I do understand your points, too.

Yeah, Tate is a dickhead... His growth is a mystery to me and I can only put it down to extreme actions provoking extreme reactions. I don't personally see the appeal in the man at all.

I just think that toxic behaviours are usually pretty universal and gender labels for them are usually (not saying you at all) just an attempt to other or distance the observer away from them ("it's that group, not my group"). I don't think they serve a real purpose beyond that.

I talk to so many feminists that insist that women are the vehicles of perfection and incapable of bad thoughts or intentions and that it's all on the evil men. They don't even recognise the existence of 'toxic feminity'... they use the label of male toxicity to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their own behaviours.

And yeah, it's good to talk about these things

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I talk to so many feminists that insist that women are the vehicles of perfection and incapable of bad thoughts or intentions and that it's all on the evil men. They don't even recognise the existence of 'toxic feminity'... they use the label of male toxicity to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their own behaviours.

And yeah, it's good to talk about these things

Yeah the 'femcel' side of Instagram can be super toxic

Same, good talk.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

What does, saying that toxic masculinity exists?

As a man, some toxic masculinity examples I see regularly from men are:

• not expressing their feelings for fear of shame or mocking

• mocking or shaming men for expressing their feelings

• refusing to pull their weight around the house

• not letting their son play with dolls or wear pink

• consistently not control their anger

• acting like their wife/girlfriend is a weight around their neck in front of their mates

• being uncomfortable around gay men

• believing men should be in financial control in a relationship

• mocking therapy

Now some of these are acted out by women too, so you may ask what makes these examples of toxic masculinity rather than just toxic behaviours, and I think it's the intentions behind them - most of these sorts of actions when acted out by men are because it makes them feel like less of a man. The actions are linked to the maleness, rather than despite it. People who behave like this often define manliness with physical strength, power and a set of binary rules from long ago. and nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I am an advocate for men, I think there are many things that men are victim to in society that harm them and often these are directly from women. I also think toxic femininity exists, too and can be equally damaging.

To me what you've described is an extreme example of someone with Machismo.

Even the noun description of Machismo talks about the person having "strong or aggressive masculine pride" which fits your description of Toxic Masculinity quite well imo.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do appreciate these are behaviours in both men and women, but I think what turns something into a gender-led toxic behaviour is the reasoning for the behaviour and quite often it's linked to them acting that way because they think it's a threat to their masculinity to not behave that way.

I do also agree that many of these sorts of behaviours are dying out thankfully, but I do also think that the rise in popularity of people like Andrew Tate is creating a bit of an uptick in toxic behaviour in young men.

But I do understand your points, too.

I agree with you on Andrew Tate.

He is a huge problem with how he is able to get so many young men onboard.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

To me what you've described is an extreme example of someone with Machismo.

Even the noun description of Machismo talks about the person having "strong or aggressive masculine pride" which fits your description of Toxic Masculinity quite well imo.

My list wasn't to suggest that someone has all of these behaviour traits. They might just have one or two for example. But yes if they exhibit all of them then run for the hills because they're a field of red flags

[Ammi]

…it’s all terminology and labelling, isn’t it…that muddy’s it all and creates the divides…(…I know/being a female I may be a bit biased…)…but surely the majority of people or hopefully the majority of people are feminists because it’s a term and belief of equality in genders…and when it’s often applied as if it’s just a female descriptive, to me that feels as though it feeds into a divide that isn’t accurate…

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

My list wasn't to suggest that someone has all of these behaviour traits. They might just have one or two for example. But yes if they exhibit all of them then run for the hills because they're a field of red flags

Too true tbf.

You've definitely got me thinking on this particular topic though, which I'm grateful for.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Too true tbf.

You've definitely got me thinking on this particular topic though, which I'm grateful for.

Thanks a lot MM!