[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

As to your second point we were called TERFs and BIGOTS for daring to say that MEN would take advantage of self ID to access womans spaces at no point did I see anyone say transwomen would take advantage, of course people knew that but they just liked the idea they could throw around slurs with impunity

I dont get what you are saying with your third point sorry, imagine saying straight women were not allowed in gay clubs because?? of what

The issue here is MEN.....it has always been MEN....not transwomen, not transmen...but MEN

I completely agree the issue is men, so why are trans women the ones being forced to take the flack for something MEN are doing? That's been my disagreement with the rhetoric the whole time - we know it's men, we all agree it's men, but it's trans women who are being held responsible for those actions. People are called transphobes when they conflate the actions of men with the "trans issue". They're not trans, so why are trans women even being bought into the conversation.

My third point was playing on that logic - a man is the perpetrator, is using a pretending to be a woman to attack cis women and yet it's trans women who are being forced to take responsibility through removal of freedoms because of something men are doing. All I did in my example was swap the roles of trans and cis women around to highlight how ridiculous and unfair it is on the persons identity that's being hijacked.

The reason people refer to some of the conversations around this as transphobic is because trans women are being used as scapegoats ... some people use these situations to damage the reputation of trans people and refer to it as a "trans issue" when it's not.

It's great you agree it's nothing to do with trans people, but many don't see it that way. Many people see a cis man pretending to be a woman in the same way they see actual trans women and so for them, both of them are under that same umbrella. What we can't agree on, and that's fine, is that the remedy is to stop trans women being able to use the spaces that align with their identity.

[Good King Glennceslas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I completely agree the issue is men, so why are trans women the ones being forced to take the flack for something MEN are doing? That's been my disagreement with the rhetoric the whole time - we know it's men, we all agree it's men, but it's trans women who are being held responsible for those actions. People are called transphobes when they conflate the actions of men with the "trans issue". They're not trans, so why are trans women even being bought into the conversation.

My third point was playing on that logic - a man is the perpetrator, is using a pretending to be a woman to attack cis women and yet it's trans women who are being forced to take responsibility through removal of freedoms because of something men are doing. All I did in my example was swap the roles of trans and cis women around to highlight how ridiculous and unfair it is on the persons identity that's being hijacked.

The reason people refer to some of the conversations around this as transphobic is because trans women are being used as scapegoats ... some people use these situations to damage the reputation of trans people and refer to it as a "trans issue" when it's not.

It's great you agree it's nothing to do with trans people, but many don't see it that way. Many people see a cis man pretending to be a woman in the same way they see actual trans women and so for them, both of them are under that same umbrella. What we can't agree on, and that's fine, is that the remedy is to stop trans women being able to use the spaces that align with their identity.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I completely agree the issue is men, so why are trans women the ones being forced to take the flack for something MEN are doing? That's been my disagreement with the rhetoric the whole time - we know it's men, we all agree it's men, but it's trans women who are being held responsible for those actions. People are called transphobes when they conflate the actions of men with the "trans issue". They're not trans, so why are trans women even being bought into the conversation.

My third point was playing on that logic - a man is the perpetrator, is using a pretending to be a woman to attack cis women and yet it's trans women who are being forced to take responsibility through removal of freedoms because of something men are doing. All I did in my example was swap the roles of trans and cis women around to highlight how ridiculous and unfair it is on the persons identity that's being hijacked.

The reason people refer to some of the conversations around this as transphobic is because trans women are being used as scapegoats ... some people use these situations to damage the reputation of trans people and refer to it as a "trans issue" when it's not.

It's great you agree it's nothing to do with trans people, but many don't see it that way. Many people see a cis man pretending to be a woman in the same way they see actual trans women and so for them, both of them are under that same umbrella. What we can't agree on, and that's fine, is that the remedy is to stop trans women being able to use the spaces that align with their identity.

I have asked time and time and again why transwomen did not support women in their efforts to say self ID was a complete mess and a loophole by which MEN would try to access women and girls, they unfortunately like alot of people were paralysed by fear, I have heard transwomen interviewed on the radio who dared put their head above the parapet subjected to death threats etc, you really need to be looking at Stonewall who pushed for self ID, its not and never has been beneficial to transwoman or women for MEN to be able to self ID, unfortunately as well the male gay community have stayed silent while their lesbian sisters have been accused of being transphobic for not wanting to have a relationship with a transwoman and have remained largely silent and been part of the TERF /BIGOT brigade when it comes to women highlighting the issues around self ID, even when there was that very high profile case in Scotland where that MAN who RAPED TWO WOMEN and whilst in custody claimed transgender status for his own gain, ....where was the outrage from the LGBTQ community, you could see what was happening before your eyes but still remained silent, so unfortunately transwomen are collateral damage but you need to look at your community as to why that is.

[Cherry Christmas]

And just to add to the above if women and transwomen had been allowed to work around the issue of self ID being forced on us, this would have had a totally different outcome, instead the trans activists got involved, most of whom are women hating men, transwomen saw them as allies when they were not allies at all, but saw the opportunity to invade womens safe spaces with impunity and turn up at rallies and assault women protected by the paralysis of the police on the issue

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I have asked time and time and again why transwomen did not support women in their efforts to say self ID was a complete mess and a loophole by which MEN would try to access women and girls, they unfortunately like alot of people were paralysed by fear, I have heard transwomen interviewed on the radio who dared put their head above the parapet subjected to death threats etc, you really need to be looking at Stonewall who pushed for self ID, its not and never has been beneficial to transwoman or women for MEN to be able to self ID, unfortunately as well the male gay community have stayed silent while their lesbian sisters have been accused of being transphobic for not wanting to have a relationship with a transwoman and have remained largely silent and been part of the TERF /BIGOT brigade when it comes to women highlighting the issues around self ID, even when there was that very high profile case in Scotland where that MAN who RAPED TWO WOMEN and whilst in custody claimed transgender status for his own gain, ....where was the outrage from the LGBTQ community, you could see what was happening before your eyes but still remained silent, so unfortunately transwomen are collateral damage but you need to look at your community as to why that is.

Why is our community specifically responsible for denouncing the actions of straight, cisgendered men who piggy back off our real existence?

A straight man who raped two women and then claimed transgendered status has nothing to do with us. It's horrific, but why are you holding an entire community responsible for being spokesperson in that case? Do you do the same with every Catholic person when a Priest is found to be a pedophile?

People react an on individual level, not as a monolithic group. I don't know anyone who wouldn't be outraged and disgusted by such a story, but why specifically do you look to the gay community for a press release? Why not everyone? Why not the straight community, seeing as he is was a straight man. We don't all get together and write a weekly newsletter. What a bizarre thing to say.

As for being transphobic for not dating a trans person, I actually completely agree with you on this and every gay person and trans person I personally know, of which is a fair chunk, would also disagree with the idea that not wanting to date a trans person is transphobic.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Why is our community specifically responsible for denouncing the actions of straight, cisgendered men who piggy back off our real existence?

A straight man who raped two women and then claimed transgendered status has nothing to do with us. It's horrific, but why are you holding an entire community responsible for being spokesperson in that case? Do you do the same with every Catholic person when a Priest is found to be a pedophile?

People react an on individual level, not as a monolithic group. I don't know anyone who wouldn't be outraged and disgusted by such a story, but why specifically do you look to the gay community for a press release? Why not everyone? Why not the straight community, seeing as he is was a straight man. We don't all get together and write a weekly newsletter. What a bizarre thing to say.

As for being transphobic for not dating a trans person, I actually completely agree with you on this and every gay person and trans person I personally know, of which is a fair chunk, would also disagree with the idea that not wanting to date a trans person is transphobic.

Of course not but you will find plenty people talking about it, denouncing it, writing about it....where was the denouncement? just taking TiBB as a snapshot I didn't see one gay member speak out about how MEN are piggybacking on self id for personal gain.....not one! Many TiBB female posters have raised the issue to be greeted by TERF, BIGOT responses, so forgive me if I feel the attitude of SOME of the gay community has not been helpful to the trans community at all but that is just my opinion of course

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Of course not but you will find plenty people talking about it, denouncing it, writing about it....where was the denouncement? just taking TiBB as a snapshot I didn't see one gay member speak out about how MEN are piggybacking on self id for personal gain.....not one! Many TiBB female posters have raised the issue to be greeted by TERF, BIGOT responses, so forgive me if I feel the attitude of SOME of the gay community has not been helpful to the trans community at all but that is just my opinion of course

Maybe it’s best for you not to take an internet forum as a benchmark for the actions and thoughts of an entire community.

SOME of the gay community may not have been helpful. Best not to denounce an entire group of people off the actions of some though. Every community has its bad eggs, right?

I have friends who are gay, trans and all those closest to me are straight cis women and we speak about this issue and always have spoken about similar matters. I do wonder how many people on this thread have ever actually met a trans person let alone had an actual discussion with them.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Maybe it’s best for you not to take an internet forum as a benchmark for the actions and thoughts of an entire community.

SOME of the gay community may not have been helpful. Best not to denounce an entire group of people off the actions of some though. Every community has its bad eggs, right?

I have friends who are gay, trans and all those closest to me are straight cis women and we speak about this issue and always have spoken about similar matters. I do wonder how many people on this thread have ever actually met a trans person let alone had an actual discussion with them.

Maybe its best for you not to tell me how to interpret things? I also listen to a lot of political radio shows, and I read.... we have to have met a transwoman to have an opinion? as a woman I have a lot more skin in this game than you, and as I said above if transwomen and women had been allowed to sort this out it would have been done and dusted, instead as I previously posted WOMEN have lost their jobs, WOMEN's safety has been compromised by housing MEN in prisons, WOMEN have lost their places on podiums, WOMEN have lost job opportunities and all this for a small percentage of the population whose hard left activist supporters felt their rights trumped women, but they don't we should have equal rights as we have had since the 70s not this new version of erasing women. Btw I do know two transwomen one beautiful elegant lady and one who has slapped a wig and a bit of lipstick on

I also dont know why you are so focussed on bathrooms when that is the thin end of the wedge, transmen will find a way to go to toilet trust me.

I also find it interesting that you refer to cis women when you have been respectfully asked not to refer to us in this way on the forum, where is the two way street here?

Anyway I am done with this topic now, it will just go around in circles like it always does .

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Maybe its best for you not to tell me how to interpret things? I also listen to a lot of political radio shows, and I read.... we have to have met a transwoman to have an opinion? as a woman I have a lot more skin in this game than you, and as I said above if transwomen and women had been allowed to sort this out it would have been done and dusted, instead as I previously posted WOMEN have lost their jobs, WOMEN's safety has been compromised by housing MEN in prisons, WOMEN have lost their places on podiums, WOMEN have lost job opportunities and all this for a small percentage of the population whose hard left activist supporters felt their rights trumped women

And now some women who may be a bit more traditionally masculine presenting - broader, taller, perhaps have facial hair due to medical issues, will now be forced to prove they are women in order to gain access to women's spaces. That doesn't sound like a win for women to me, it sounds regressive.

I also find it interesting that you refer to cis women when you have been respectfully asked not to refer to us in this way on the forum, where is the two way street here?

I have also referred to cis men. As previously stated, cis is literally just a neutral adjective that is the antonym for 'trans' and has been used since the times of Ancient Greece where is derives from.

I'm using it to differentiate to avoid confusion and have never attached a positive or negative to its usage. It's the correct word being used in the correct way and isn't being used to insult or mock or disparage.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It's great you agree it's nothing to do with trans people, but many don't see it that way. Many people see a cis man pretending to be a woman in the same way they see actual trans women and so for them, both of them are under that same umbrella. What we can't agree on, and that's fine, is that the remedy is to stop trans women being able to use the spaces that align with their identity.

My thoyht on this: largely and long term, I agree with you in sentiment, that genuine trans people (transitioned) ultimately should, in a world where facilities are only binary, not have to use facilities purely based on sex. But this involves a few things - such as an acknowledgement that there are different and more troubling aspects of the "trans umbrella" (autogynephilia is rife if anyone would care to admit it, and a clear risky mindset) and completely discarding the concept of "full self - ID" I.e. All must accept that one is what they say they are regardless of presentation. It often slides close to gaslighting.

Over and above that... it needs to be accepted that from a safeguarding perspective, anythibg that's established has to be done with good planning, proper assessment, carefully and sensitively for all. In recent years it's been done with sweeping broad strokes, and an attitude of "just accept it no questions!"... And at the end of the day that has caused massive damage all round for an entire generation.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Over and above that... it needs to be accepted that from a safeguarding perspective, anythibg that's established has to be done with good planning, proper assessment, carefully and sensitively for all. In recent years it's been done with sweeping broad strokes, and an attitude of "just accept it no questions!"... And at the end of the day that has caused massive damage all round for an entire generation.

I appreciate your thoughts.

What about the trans men, born women, who now should be using the women’s bathrooms as by definition they are women. What about cis men who want to attack women now cosplaying as trans men instead of trans women?

I feel like it’s not been thought through at all.

[arista]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I appreciate your thoughts.

What about the trans men, born women, who now should be using the women’s bathrooms as by definition they are women. What about cis men who want to attack women now cosplaying as trans men instead of trans women?

I feel like it’s not been thought through at all.

Thats a tangle.


Politicians in Parliament
After their bloody holiday,
will have to sort this

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I appreciate your thoughts.

What about the trans men, born women, who now should be using the women’s bathrooms as by definition they are women. What about cis men who want to attack women now cosplaying as trans men instead of trans women?

I feel like it’s not been thought through at all.

That's an excellent point, now they don't even need to make themselves look different, they can just say they're trans men. Once again the problem is CIS MEN being predators.