[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Redway

You’re just not seeing the social reality of what these people’s experiences are likely to be in connection with this chapter. And if you can’t see that, you really need to gain some perspective. No-one’s turning cartwheels just because a killer got killed himself.

… have you noticed that you talk down to people … assuming that your views or THEORIES are correct or set in stone - when in fact nobody knows …

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I used to be for the death penalty and vigilante justice years ago to be brutally honest.

But I think that my main issue with it as I've got older, in what's meant to be a more "democratic” society, is that a completely innocent person could be accused of murder and then face Vigilante justice.

I know that's not the case with Ian Huntley, but we can't make exceptions to the law, otherwise we have a broken society.

That always been an interesting viewpoint ..



The chances of a complete misjudgment in a serious murder enquiry are minuscule so if 99.9% of evil murderers are given a lethal injection then that would make our land far , far safer and minimises the chances of innocent children/ people being viciously murdered.


I would happily risk one ‘relatively’ innocent person being put down (I researched quite a few miscarriage of justice cases years ago and the vast majority were actually career criminals with extensive lists of violent crimes on their files ) ( so can they really be considered ‘innocent’ in the truest sense ?

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, you’ve made a very good point as well in that while he was alive in prison, the families could focus their grief on hating him and focusing grief in such a way in such a strong emotion can become such an emotional crutch also, can’t it…so now the processing of it all will take time as well/such a mixture and many layers of emotions …I was reading some responses that were saying things like ‘buy the killer a beer etc’…I mean, I know some comments are reactionary but there is obviously also the loved ones of the three people whose lives he took also and the emotions they will have in him having ‘boosted’ his own standing in that high security A prison…it’s a very complicated thing and as I said originally, monsters killing monsters in a place of many monsters…

Interesting

That said I don’t feel that the families HATING Huntley for decades has been at all healthy or helpful ..


I think they will be far better off when he’s 6’ underground ..

[Redway]

Sigh.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Redway

Sigh.

Go on indulge me

Which comment brought on the sigh ?

[bots]

there is no right or wrong way for families who have lost their loved ones to murder react. There isn't even a typical way they respond. Everyone on earth processes it differently

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by bots

there is no right or wrong way for families who have lost their loved ones to murder react. There isn't even a typical way they respond. Everyone on earth processes it differently

Of course .,

My theory is that ONE of the responses may be one of happiness or extreme relief that Huntley is dead. .

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bots

there is no right or wrong way for families who have lost their loved ones to murder react. There isn't even a typical way they respond. Everyone on earth processes it differently

….totally, grief is very much a personal thing and in an horrific situation like this, there would be so much compounded and layered onto that grief also…what I do hope is that the media allow both families their time to process…if they wish to speak and react, they will…but I hope they give them space and don’t push for that to happen…

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Redway

Sigh.

Originally Posted by Zizu

Go on indulge me

Which comment brought on the sigh ?

…could you both please stop in this thread…the forum has had to persevere with you interrupting so many threads in practising your self indulgence but in this thread/on this topic it’s completely distasteful in its inappropriateness…

[Livia]

Originally Posted by caprimint

What is "evil" though? That's too subjective with minor offences included which again raises the issue of where does it end? How evil deserves death?

I do agree that it's a problem that money goes towards keeping them alive but that's a whole other issue I guess

Someone who murders two ten year old girls, for a start. That's evil. There's no coming back for them or for their families.

Originally Posted by Redway

You’re just not seeing the social reality of what these people’s experiences are likely to be in connection with this chapter. And if you can’t see that, you really need to gain some perspective. No-one’s turning cartwheels just because a killer got killed himself.

Everyone had a different take on this. Yes it's true Zizu can't really know how the girls' parents feel. But then, neither can you. If someone touched my daughter I'd want to kill them myself. I can imagine the parents feel elated, but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's Satan I feel sorry for...

Yeah, he's got quite the housefull by now.I

[caprimint]

Originally Posted by Livia

Someone who murders two ten year old girls, for a start. That's evil. There's no coming back for them or for their families.

Yeah of course, their families/friends will never recover no matter what. I'm just not sure how "evil enough" for the death penalty would be determined in every other case especially when there are so many complex situations with various involvements etc

[arista]

Ali on LBC
says is this us supporting the death sentence?


No Ali
it was a Prisoner with a Stick that had nails in it
and the prison officer on duty
walked away.

So it was not "us"

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…could you both please stop in this thread…the forum has had to persevere with you interrupting so many threads in practising your self indulgence but in this thread/on this topic it’s completely distasteful in its inappropriateness…

With all due respect, Ammi, my disagreement with Zizu’s opinion this thread based on present vibes and not history are civil enough. It’s not a distasteful derailment. It’s not self-indulgent. It’s not sniping. It’s just a different opinion on a forum and that’s where it stayed.

You know I have a lot of time for you, Ammi, but this is not an appropriate comment. And I’m disappointed that that’s coming from you. It stayed respectful and on-topic throughout, otherwise my posts would’ve been inevitably deleted, like so much inevitably does. I am not the sort of person to derail a thread about child-murder, so please don’t project that onto me based on me and Zizu’s history. Nowhere in this thread has this been the case. Nowhere. People are allowed to disagree within civil bounds, whether they have history of actual beef or not. And clearly that’s all this is.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Zizu

That always been an interesting viewpoint ..



The chances of a complete misjudgment in a serious murder enquiry are minuscule so if 99.9% of evil murderers are given a lethal injection then that would make our land far , far safer and minimises the chances of innocent children/ people being viciously murdered.


I would happily risk one ‘relatively’ innocent person being put down (I researched quite a few miscarriage of justice cases years ago and the vast majority were actually career criminals with extensive lists of violent crimes on their files ) ( so can they really be considered ‘innocent’ in the truest sense ?

In theory it's great wiping out evil murderers & predators ,but tell that to the innocent people on death row ? .

It's happened over here ,where People get wrongly accused and lose years of their life in prison. But then they get released and can get compensation, whereas if they receive the death penalty then that's it .

[Redway]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

In theory it's great wiping out evil murderers & predators ,but tell that to the innocent people on death row ? .

It's happened over here ,where People get wrongly accused and lose years of their life in prison. But then they get released and can get compensation, whereas if they receive the death penalty then that's it .

Very good point. All well-and-good in theory, until they make an erroneous conviction.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

It’s seems crazy to say it but this attack doesn’t sit right with me, I’ve come in this thread a few times wanting to add my opinion

A murder killing another murder , he hasn’t done it for the girls or their parents, he has done it to make a name for himself as the one who killed Huntley


Also I believe this has been allowed to happen because he was know to be at risk of attack why was there a three foot metal pole with spikes on it in prison, did no one say hold on a minute that can be used as a weapon and so soon after the Watkins killing

And for those that are happy, this time it was a murderer getting attacked what if the next time it’s a prison guard getting attacked who has a family

…just coming back to your words here and the last paragraph specifically because the level of security in ‘A’ security prisons and this one maybe in particular does seem to be severely flawed…wasn’t it the same prison that the Manchester Arena bomber attacked three prison officers not too long ago…?… he threw hot oil at the officers and stabbed them with blades that had been made from cooking trays…access to the kitchens or any other area of makeshift weapons being possible to be created was something that was meant to be restricted from then…for someone who is serving a life sentence and an unlikely-hood to be released, then the consequences at most would be another life sentence and unlikely-hood of being released….I understand that the ‘prison hierarchy’ places child killers and paedophiles etc at the bottom of that prison chain and they become targets…but just as easily, a prison officer could be placed at the bottom of that chain also so it’s very much about keeping those who work there safe…

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…just coming back to your words here and the last paragraph specifically because the level of security in ‘A’ security prisons and this one maybe in particular does seem to be severely flawed…wasn’t it the same prison that the Manchester Arena bomber attacked three prison officers not too long ago…?… he threw hot oil at the officers and stabbed them with blades that had been made from cooking trays…access to the kitchens or any other area of makeshift weapons being possible to be created was something that was meant to be restricted from then…for someone who is serving a life sentence and an unlikely-hood to be released, then the consequences at most would be another life sentence and unlikely-hood of being released….I understand that the ‘prison hierarchy’ places child killers and paedophiles etc at the bottom of that prison chain and they become targets…but just as easily, a prison officer could be placed at the bottom of that chain also so it’s very much about keeping those who work there safe…

That’s another plus of the death penalty

These thousands of violent murders have to be contained/restrained by normal people ( prison guards) who are all at serious risk every minute they are on duty

Not to mention the hundreds of millions we have wasted on keeping them behind bars for decades .. money that could have gone to hospitals and schools or housing ..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zizu

That’s another plus of the death penalty

These thousands of violent murders have to be contained/restrained by normal people ( prison guards) who are all at serious risk every minute they are on duty

Not to mention the hundreds of millions we have wasted on keeping them behind bars for decades .. money that could have gone to hospitals and schools or housing ..

…I think that probably the wider Death Penalty discussion would be for a thread on its own….for me, it doesn’t really work because of the time that is spent on death row also, which can be 20-30 years because of the legal process of appeals etc …but as I say, it’s not a topic that I personally feel that I want to discuss in any depth in this thread…

[Livia]

In these days of dna and overwhelming forensic evidence, it's so much harder to convict innocent people. Sometimes, there is absolutely no doubt about who's done what because the evidence more than convincing, it's absolute. Like in the case of Huntley. It's all very nice and inclusive to worry about the monsters, I suppose; nice to imagine all life is sacred but it is not. Once you'd done something inhuman it's time for you to leave the human race. When the evidence is certain, especially in the case of child murderers and serial killers, I would eradicate them from the gene pool. I feel sure if people had to cope with the heinous murder of someone close to them, have to think about the fear and the pain they went through, about the hopeless agony of their last moments while the monster that killed them got his jollies, people might care less about the perpetrator.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Livia

I these days of dna and overwhelming forensic evidence, it's so much harder to convict innocent people. Sometimes, there is absolutely no doubt about who's done what because the evidence more than convincing, it's absolute. Like in the case of Huntley. It's all very nice and inclusive to worry about the monsters, I suppose; nice to imagine all life is sacred but it is not. Once you'd done something inhuman it's time for you to leave the human race. When the evidence is certain, especially in the case of child murderers and serial killers, I would eradicate them from the gene pool. I feel sure if people had to cope with the heinous murder of someone close to them, have to think about the fear and the pain they went through, about the hopeless agony of their last moments while the monster that killed them got his jollies, people might care less about the perpetrator.

100%

[bots]

Wasn't there a very recent case where the police were found to have framed someone for a crime? Where there is a will there is a way ..... still holds true to this day

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bots

Wasn't there a very recent case where the police were found to have framed someone for a crime? Where there is a will there is a way ..... still holds true to this day

…I mean, every day we see outcries of a policing/justice system that feels very broken atm and those are all parts of the wheels of a system that we would rely on in a death penalty system …and ironically one of the high security prisoners in the same prison as Ian Huntley was killed in is Wayne Couzens, a police officer who fell through a ‘foolproof or at least sound system’….I read that 1 death penalty prisoner in around 8/9 was exonerated and that’s scarily high, I would say…there may be advancements in DNA evidence etc but to counter that there is also a very quick moving advancement in ‘deep fake’ technology …

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by bots

Wasn't there a very recent case where the police were found to have framed someone for a crime? Where there is a will there is a way ..... still holds true to this day

Where there's corruption...so it figures.

Plus juries themselves get it wrong,I would hate getting called for jury duty .

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…I mean, every day we see outcries of a policing/justice system that feels very broken atm and those are all parts of the wheels of a system that we would rely on in a death penalty system …and ironically one of the high security prisoners in the same prison as Ian Huntley was killed in is Wayne Couzens, a police officer who fell through a ‘foolproof or at least sound system’….I read that 1 death penalty prisoner in around 8/9 was exonerated and that’s scarily high, I would say…there may be advancements in DNA evidence etc but to counter that there is also a very quick moving advancement in ‘deep fake’ technology …

Death Row Error Rate: Approximately 4.1% of inmates on death row are estimated to be innocent.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Death Row Error Rate: Approximately 4.1% of inmates on death row are estimated to be innocent.

Still that’s exterminating 95.9% of evil , callous people … thereby making the streets much safer