[Stu]

I am pretty confident in my way of life to the extent that seing a symbol in the sky does not crush my soul and destroy my sense of identity. I suppose for other people it's different.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

I am pretty confident in my way of life to the extent that seing a symbol in the sky does not crush my soul and destroy my sense of identity. I suppose for other people it's different.

I agree. I can only assume that there were some kind of plans brought to the Swiss government to build more mosques and they flipped out over it - to come up with that kind of legislation out of the blue is baffling.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Zee

I agree. I can only assume that there were some kind of plans brought to the Swiss government to build more mosques and they flipped out over it - to come up with that kind of legislation out of the blue is baffling.

NO, the government is against it. ANd urged the people to not ban the minaret, because it will cause religious extremism. But htey had no choice, because it was a petition that got 100, 000 signatures (which is really easy to have about any issue). Its just a stupid fear generated idea. Islamophobia pure and simple. Its like if the indians thought the Taj Mahal is a symbol of oppression. Its simply somthing that was brought on by their version of the BnP. But they put in the referendum, which of course passed, because most normal people wouldnt bother about such trivial things as a minaret, which is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

NO, the government is against it. ANd urged the people to not ban the minaret, because it will cause religious extremism. But htey had no choice, because it was a petition that got 100, 000 signatures (which is really easy to have about any issue). Its just a stupid fear generated idea. Islamophobia pure and simple. Its like if the indians thought the Taj Mahal is a symbol of oppression. Its simply somthing that was brought on by their version of the BnP. But they put in the referendum, which of course passed, because most normal people wouldnt bother about such trivial things as a minaret, which is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques.

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it! What about Muslims trying to meet other cultures half-way for a change - instead of wanting their demands met all the time. And how would a support of the ban in any way justify extremists to what - start bombing more people? Most normal people react to such issues by protests or taking the political or legal route - they don't start murdering people!

And by the way - 57.5% of the Swiss voters is hardly an 'abnormal' minority! Stop deliberately trying to trivialise how a great many people feel! Those concerns exist for good reasons! Maybe some of the things that the Muslim religion stands for - like its oppressive treatment of women and general disregard for human rights might have something to do with why so many are distrustful and hostile towards them. They need to take some responsibility! And please lets not be so boring and predictable as to play the 'race card' again! Just might make me vomit!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Same for me. I am muslim, but not a very religious person either. I smoke and drink, and I dont remember the last time Ive been to a mosque , but this is one of the most blatant islamophobia thing I have ever seen.
And its hilarious when I read statements like, they dont have churhs in muslim countries. IN my country which is 95% muslims, there are more than 10 churches, in the capital city alone. As a matter of fact, the cathedral, is the biggest religious structure in whole of Dakar and is right in the middle of the city.


I wonder what would happen if they banned the minarets on that!

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by setanta

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.

That's a good point actually James, I didn't think of it that way.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it!

Because it's just a normal design feature of the building as standard. Therefore the ball is firmly in they're court. To reverse your point why are the Swiss making such a big deal of taking it away?

Oh noes, they might forget they are Swiss!

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not, in fact, terrorists. You ask us not to play the race card, I think it's only fair you don't play the terrorism card.

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by setanta

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.

Errrm, 1. there are 3 mosques with minarets in Switzerland. Esthetics? What the hell do 3 mosques a whole coutry have anything to do with aesthetics?

2. the picture, that i posted, was a church, not a mosque, in a 95% Muslim country. And like I said, its the biggest religious building in the country. So waht are you talking about they should build their places of whorship.

3. No one is banning any other ornaments from any other religion. SO this has nothing to do with culture preservation. Its directed strictly at the muslim

4. They didnt ban mosques, they banned the minaret, and thats the whole point of my comparaison to the churches in other muslim countries. People think muslim= the middle east. Well its not.

[Stu]

Only three? Christ. Unless all the Mosques with Minarets were somehow loaded onto the back of trucks and parked directly outside your hotel window or home in Switzerland - where they would be left parked overnight with Arabic music blaring from soundspeakers mounted onto the back of Camels being manned by Quran touting extremists brandishing scimitars, I really fail to see how it gives the impression that Switzerland is a Muslim country without an identity of it's own.

Again, some people are very, very bored. Mountains out of fucking molehills.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Stu

Because it's just a normal design feature of the building as standard. Therefore the ball is firmly in they're court. To reverse your point why are the Swiss making such a big deal of taking it away?

Oh noes, they might forget they are Swiss!

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not, in fact, terrorists. You ask us not to play the race card, I think it's only fair you don't play the terrorism card.

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

Oh you quoted that poster, I have 3 people on ignore, they are one of them. . A few people in here, have clear views, that make me want to puke, and feel bad for the human race.
About the MInaret, yeah, its just decorative mostly. NO one climbs up there to call for prayer. Prayer is called inside the mosque, except in certain muslim coutries, and thats only some. There are a lot of mosques in the UK, and you will not see anyone call for prayer in those things.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.

But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in fucking Minarets. Overkill, much?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Stu

But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in fucking Minarets. Overkill, much?

Yeah those signs looked a bit creepy alright

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by setanta

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.

LMAO! When you think of India, what is the buliding that comes to mind? I dont know about you, but for me, its the Taj Mahal, which is probably the biggest muslim mosoleum in the world, with the biggest minarets. And India, is basically hindu. NOw do you know, why they dont care? Its because they actually see that as a beautiful piece of architecture, not a religious place. As a matter of fact, anyone who really believes in their faith, will only see those buildings fro what they are, just a building. Thats why the cathedral in my country is one of the biggest, and most respected structure in the capital. Those people who think seeing a buliding would influence their faith in any ways shape or form, dont really have much faith.

By the way, Spain has a huge influence of Islamic architecture, in most of their bulidings, if you didnt know that.


And if you dont know what the Taj Mahal is:




Thank god its not in Switzerland.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Oh you quoted that poster, I have 3 people on ignore, they are one of them. . A few people in here, have clear views, that make me want to puke, and feel bad for the human race.
About the MInaret, yeah, its just decorative mostly. NO one climbs up there to call for prayer. Prayer is called inside the mosque, except in certain muslim coutries, and thats only some. There are a lot of mosques in the UK, and you will not see anyone call for prayer in those things.

That chip on your shoulder must be getting a bit heavy now! The fact that you are Muslim (even if non-practicising) is very apparent in your very biased views and unfair condemnation of anyone who dares criticise the Muslim religion and culture. I actually find it highly amusing that you have put me on your ignore list - and you talk about overreactions! Your views are every bit as biased and racist as you are quick to accuse anyone else of being who dares to have opposing views to you.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in fucking Minarets. Overkill, much?

I agree it's overkill and more than likely a Muslim thing, but I can see the value in being cautious when it comes to this kinda thing.

Hey, and Wildcat is wrong about there only being 3.... there's over 90 now from what I'm reading online.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

LMAO! When you think of India, what is the buliding that comes to mind? I dont know about you, but for me, its the Taj Mahal, which is probably the biggest muslim mosoleum in the world, with the biggest minarets. And India, is basically hindu. NOw do you know, why they dont care? Its because they actually see that as a beautiful piece of architecture, not a religious place. As a matter of fact, anyone who really believes in their faith, will only see those buildings fro what they are, just a building. Thats why the cathedral in my country is one of the biggest, and most respected structure in the capital. Those people who think seeing a buliding would influence their faith in any ways shape or form, dont really have much faith.

By the way, Spain has a huge influence of Islamic architecture, in most of their bulidings, if you didnt know that.


And if you dont know what the Taj Mahal is:




Thank god its not in Switzerland.

You're actually more reactionary then the people who condemn the preachings of Islam, do you know that?

The Taj Mahal has cultural significance in India..... It's been there for over 300 years. You're kinda dull in your condemnation of anyone who likes to have a conversation about these things.

Edit: it's almost 400 hundred bloody years old.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by setanta

Hey, and Wildcat is wrong about there only being 3.... there's over 90 now from what I'm reading online.

90 really?



(RTTNews) - Sunday, Switzerland voted by a clear majority in a referendum banning the construction of minarets on mosques, which right-wing parties regard as symbols of militant Islam--the first country in Europe to vote to curb the religious practices of Muslims.

The ban was supported by a majority of 57.5%, 20 percentage points more than predicted in opinion polls in the run-up to the vote. The result, in a country that has only four mosques with minarets and no major problems with Islamist militancy, has taken the Swiss establishment by surprise, which was bracing itself for a backlash in the Middle East.

"The federal council (the body that constitutes the federal government) respects this decision," said a government statement Sunday night. "The construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted."

The unprecedented victory for the right wing extreme nationalist party, Swiss People's Party (SVP), which has campaigned in previous years against immigrants has stirred fears of strife where there was relative peace. The move is also likely to tarnish the country's image abroad, affect investment and trade with the Muslim countries, and derail efforts to integrate a population of some 400,000 Muslims, most of whom are European Muslims--and non-mosque-goers--from the Balkans.

It needs to be seen if the result contradicts the Swiss constitution, which protects freedom of religion. The result almost certainly put Switzerland at loggerheads with European Court of Human Rights.

The campaign to ban minarets was described by the country's justice minister as a "proxy war" for provoking conflict between ethnic Swiss and Muslim immigrants. The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government had spoken out strongly against the initiative.

http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=113020090015



Oh I am sorry. 4 not 3
Well! Thats me done with this subject!
I am not gonna change anything anyways.

[setanta]

No 90 Mosques so I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist over minarets when they're obviously not crucial to the general look of these places of worship.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I actually find it highly amusing that you have put me on your ignore list - and you talk about overreactions!

What's wrong with that? He obviously finds your views distasteful, whatever the reason why, thus you are on his ignore list. Sounds fairly logical to me. Your the one if anything who is overreacting.

[arista]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it! What about Muslims trying to meet other cultures half-way for a change - instead of wanting their demands met all the time. And how would a support of the ban in any way justify extremists to what - start bombing more people? Most normal people react to such issues by protests or taking the political or legal route - they don't start murdering people!

And by the way - 57.5% of the Swiss voters is hardly an 'abnormal' minority! Stop deliberately trying to trivialise how a great many people feel! Those concerns exist for good reasons! Maybe some of the things that the Muslim religion stands for - like its oppressive treatment of women and general disregard for human rights might have something to do with why so many are distrustful and hostile towards them. They need to take some responsibility! And please lets not be so boring and predictable as to play the 'race card' again! Just might make me vomit!

Great Points Wombai
Yes they have Not Banned Muslims
the good thing here is the public could vote.

This is the way forward

[Crimson Dynamo]

lol at everyone getting their "outrage knickers" in a twist yet no one knows what the flick they are on about.

I think it would help to have some backstory...

[Stu]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lol at everyone getting their "outrage knickers" in a twist yet no one knows what the flick they are on about.

I think it would help to have some backstory...

Sounds kinky, where can I buy a pair, the PC SuperStore?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

What's wrong with that? He obviously finds your views distasteful, whatever the reason why, thus you are on his ignore list. Sounds fairly logical to me. Your the one if anything who is overreacting.

Didn't you pass comment fairly recently when I put you on my ignore list for about 10 minutes (then thought better of it) when you said something along the lines of me not being prepared to debate the issue or something like that. A bit hypocritical don't you think?

[Crimson Dynamo]

France's far right National Front welcomed the outcome, saying that the "elites should stop denying the aspirations and fears of the European people, who, without opposing religious freedom, reject ostentatious signs that political-religious Muslim groups want to impose."

That kind of encapsulates the issue. I am not saying that it is motivated by love our owt but it may be fact.


I think if Muslims actually had some good PR they may get somewhere. At the mo all we hear is the bad stuff and when the bad stuff happens there is very little condemnation from a spokesperson and so forth

Muslims need Max Clifford and fast.