[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I am not saying anyone is to blame, nor am i saying everyone is to blame. I am simply providing facts to counterpoint your rather open statements.

Yes the Catholics were initially the wronged party, thats why the troops went in. Because of the way the government at Stormont and all local councils were highly biaised in favour of the Protestant/loyalist community, Home rule from stormont was suspended. In the 70's it looked it could have been brought back through the Sunningdale agreement, however the Ulster Unionists dug their heels in and it remained suspended. I dont dispute any of that.

Nor have I disputed what happened on Bloody Sunday. I simply stated the reasoning that the people who made the decisions that led to those mistakes actually made them. Thats not to excuse them, I have in fact stated on these forums not only should the troops involved be held accountable but also the leaders and civil servants who took the decisions that were made leading up to the incident should also be held accountable.

I dont dispute the RUC and UDR colluded with loyalist forces, that was bound to happen given both the RUC and the UDR were mainly manned by protestants. Not only that I can give instances were UDR and RUC memners were also found to be members of loyalist paramilitary groups.

I do though dispute broad brush inflammatory statements like the SAS executed IRA members. They were engaged in counter insurgency operations where their enemy would not hesitate to take not only their lives but completely disregarded any collateral damage inflicted upon civilians. In fact by the very nature of some of their operations PIRA/RIRA/CIRA/INLA/IPLO intended to kill and maim civilians to inflict terror in order to acheieve their aims.

Consequently at times especially where explosives were involved it was necessary to ensure that those explosive could not be detonated at the time of the attempted arrest. If people moved when challenged then they got shot, simply to prevent this.

You should also remember that what you class as political prisoners from the republican side were released as part of the Good Friday Agreement. Where are the prisoners of the IRA? Some of those republican prisoners were arrested by the SAS during operations, hardly the actions of state sponsored assassins.

One of the hunger strikers, in fact the second to die was Francis Hughes he was at the time of his arrest the most wanted man in Ulster, he was arrested after a shootout with an SAS patrol, during the shootout one member of the sabre team was killed and another seriously wounded. If they were in the habit of shooting IRA members on sight, wouldnt they have just slotted him? No one would have known.

A little known fact an attempt was made on the life of a Republican MP called Bernadette (Devlin) McAliskey by loyalist paramilitaries in 1981. Although both she and her husband were shot, her life was saved by a British Army patrol, which had been tasked to the area by an SAS observation team on seeing the assassination team move into the area. The OP team couldnt stop the attempt because it would have compromised them, nor did they have the firepower. However they also tasked helicopter casualty evacuation for her. They also directed another patrol that succeeded in arresting the UFF paramilitaries who had carried out the attack.

There was no shoot to kill policy within any sector of the British Armed Forces in Northern Ireland. I cant speak for certain self contained RUC units, but nor was there one within mainstream RUC.

They knew about a particular plot to bomb a local police station and instead of surrounding the vehicle intially they lay in wait until it got to the barracks and then decided to open fire, gunning down everybody on board, with many of them being unarmed at the time. Civilians have also been killed in the firestorms that the SAS initiated. I'm not suggesting that these methods were wrong or right; I'm simply stating that they decided to implement the most extreme methods in dealing with a hostile group, just like the IRA did with them when they realised that they weren't been heard.

This was a war against a State that refused to recognize a group within Northern Ireland, that's all. Britain got involved and not in the Nationalists favour. You know that they called a truce I think in the mid 70's with the IRA, telling them that they would be willing to move troops out altogether, only to abandon the whole thing halfway through the talks? It was a trick used to destabilize the Nationalist movement and it worked rather effectively. Would you trust a government that used such underhanded tactics? And don't get me started on the H Blocks and internment.