[MTVN]

Originally Posted by ange7

awww you made my eyes rain.

That wasnt meant as an insult lol, I was just saying that a lot of jokes you Aussies make about the UK go over my head a bit.

[Judas]

To add my views Ange7... I am currently a Student at Surrey, I wanted to go but (I know it's a slightly contradictory excuse) I had a important presentation I had to do that accounted for 30% of my module. However, I did promote it to try and get as many to go.

I am against the proposed increase in fees and cuts in the budget... it just isn't fair. I believe free education is a right... although I understand that is not possible. I do not believe it should be completly unfunded by the government, when billions are spent on what I see as unjustifiable spending like trident.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Judas

Arista the points you are making are rubbish. You must remember this small 'anarchic' group is a minority - NOT THE MAJORITY.

Why should we pay more for our education?

How do you feel arista that your 'babe' David Cameron is saying today that tuiton fee's may be CHEAPER for international students? That includes the 'frogs'.

P.S I have read this forum for a while, hense I know most the debates political stance.

No I fully Understand that
a Live Debate of Students pn SkyNews HD
proved the Anger at the Criminal Action.

No one is my babe.

And it was Stinking New Labour
that started charging students.



Thank You for Posting/Joining Judas.
We need more posters like you

[Judas]

Originally Posted by arista

No I fully Understand that
a Live Debate of Students pn SkyNews HD
proved the Anger at the Criminal Action.

No one is my babe.

And it was Stinking New Labour
that started charging students.

Yes it was New Labour, but it isn't Labour that plan to make higher education more expensive. If anyone, I admire David Cameron for sticking to his party line. Nick Clegg is nothing but a Judas.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Judas

Yes it was New Labour, but it isn't Labour that plan to make higher education more expensive. If anyone, I admire David Cameron for sticking to his party line. Nick Clegg is nothing but a Judas.

Yes Nick Clegg
is hated so much.

[Judas]

Wow, the police have certainly started to get more formulated, or alot of people are heading home from the 'active' demonstration feeling there point has been made.

[Tom]

Students should just go and get a proper job

Most are just a waste of time who only go for loans and to avoid getting a proper job. Daft protests like this don't help their cause or help them be taken more seriously

[Angus]

Most of these wasters only go to Uni to party and avoid having to do a decent day's work for three years. If they want to go to uni they should pay for it themselves - talk about a welfare mentality which has been lovingly fostered and encouraged by LABOUR, the very party that introduced the fees they're protesting about! (Seems some students are even thicker than I thought since they don't seem to understand this very simple fact).

How about students actually studying for a useful degree instead of some of the mickey mouse ones they leave with now and then wonder why nobody wants to employ them?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Judas

Arista the points you are making are rubbish. You must remember this small 'anarchic' group is a minority - NOT THE MAJORITY.

Why should we pay more for our education?

How do you feel arista that your 'babe' David Cameron is saying today that tuiton fee's may be CHEAPER for international students? That includes the 'frogs'.

P.S I have read this forum for a while, hense I know most the debates political stance.

Just to clear something up for you... the "Frogs" are members of the EU so do not pay overseas student fees. Current overseas student fees on some courses are several times what they are to home students.

If you want to go in to higher education, then do it. But don't expect other people to pay for it.

[ange7]

Originally Posted by MTVN

That's because the cause has kind of been overshadowed by this violence, and the thread is about the protest, not the cause.

But I did give my view on the first page: University is an investment in your future career, you cant expect to have your studies paid for all your life, if the benefit you get from your degree does not outweigh the cost then dont go

This is interesting. Some see education as an investment that an individual ought to make and then get a pay off for in the future.
Others ( lefties hehe) see education as a social investment since the whole society benefits. The uni students will not just be doctors and lawers etc they will be YOUR doctor etc. Tax payers today will benefit by investing in their own future since those that are trained will both serve the community AND pay bucket loads of tax once they are working.
You seem to think education should be a "user pays" model which promotes education just for the rich kids who's "daddies" are cashed up but denies those with the actual ability who may come from lower economic backgrounds.

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Livia

If you want to go in to higher education, then do it. But don't expect other people to pay for it.

I don't expect others to pay for it - I think that would be just as unfair as the proposed system. But I do believe that we should have some investment - is it fair that I live in debt untill I am 60 because I wanted a further education?

I do not think that tuition fees should treble to £9000 a year, and if you think that is right you obviously have no idea of how any liberal-democracy like the one we live in functions. It just can't happen.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by angus58

Most of these wasters only go to Uni to party and avoid having to do a decent day's work for three years. If they want to go to uni they should pay for it themselves - talk about a welfare mentality which has been lovingly fostered and encouraged by LABOUR, the very party that introduced the fees they're protesting about! (Seems some students are even thicker than I thought since they don't seem to understand this very simple fact).

How about students actually studying for a useful degree instead of some of the mickey mouse ones they leave with now and then wonder why nobody wants to employ them?

Qualifications don't help getting a job. They might help getting a job that isn't entry level or help you progress a little bit faster but subtract the three years and it probably works out about the same. there is no use whatsoever in getting a degree and not doing anything with it, as many do.

[ange7]

Originally Posted by Judas

To add my views Ange7... I am currently a Student at Surrey, I wanted to go but (I know it's a slightly contradictory excuse) I had a important presentation I had to do that accounted for 30% of my module. However, I did promote it to try and get as many to go.

I am against the proposed increase in fees and cuts in the budget... it just isn't fair. I believe free education is a right... although I understand that is not possible. I do not believe it should be completly unfunded by the government, when billions are spent on what I see as unjustifiable spending like trident.

I wasn't having a go at you and glad you joined in. This thread was kind of missing the point when it rambled on about how they were protesting instead of why.
re: public education... most see it as a pipe dream and most countries have a mix of private and public uni education. I guess the issue in the UK with all the cuts to expenditure means that politicians are looking at making some short term saving today but by underfunding what is a massive public investment they are robbing themselves in the future.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Judas

I don't expect others to pay for it - I think that would be just as unfair as the proposed system. But I do believe that we should have some investment - is it fair that I live in debt untill I am 60 because I wanted a further education?

60 is more or less the end of your working life, you want a degree to supplement your working life. So yes it is fair considering how little you'll actually pay off your loan every month anyway. Why isn't it fair?

[ange7]

Originally Posted by angus58

Most of these wasters only go to Uni to party and avoid having to do a decent day's work for three years. If they want to go to uni they should pay for it themselves - talk about a welfare mentality which has been lovingly fostered and encouraged by LABOUR, the very party that introduced the fees they're protesting about! (Seems some students are even thicker than I thought since they don't seem to understand this very simple fact).

How about students actually studying for a useful degree instead of some of the mickey mouse ones they leave with now and then wonder why nobody wants to employ them?

"Most of these wasters only go to Uni to party and avoid having to do a decent day's work for three years."
lol what a joke.
Uni isn't a cakewalk and if you ever saw the inside of one you'd know.
Wait let me guess... "university of life me!!"
yeah... that sound really hard to get into.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by ange7

This is interesting. Some see education as an investment that an individual ought to make and then get a pay off for in the future.
Others ( lefties hehe) see education as a social investment since the whole society benefits. The uni students will not just be doctors and lawers etc they will be YOUR doctor etc. Tax payers today will benefit by investing in their own future since those that are trained will both serve the community AND pay bucket loads of tax once they are working.
You seem to think education should be a "user pays" model which promotes education just for the rich kids who's "daddies" are cashed up but denies those with the actual ability who may come from lower economic backgrounds.

It is your decision to pursue education into university, it is your investment. The whole of society may benefit from some select degrees, I dont deny that. Students wont have to pay the money until after they've left and they're earning over £21,000, plus the Universities have to prove they're doing more to enable lower earners to get a degree if they choose to charge the full amount; something that has been forgotten. University shouldnt be for the richest, and no I do not think that, dont put words in my mouth.

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Tom

Students should just go and get a proper job

Most are just a waste of time who only go for loans and to avoid getting a proper job. Daft protests like this don't help their cause or help them be taken more seriously

How on earth is this a daft protest? I suppose you think it is best to do (exactally what I am doing!) and just complain about injustices online? This is active politics - this is making a point about injustice in our country. I plan to work for what I have in life, but I can't afford to fund or pay for a £9000 a year education system. What counts as a proper job, working in Marks and Spencers as a Manager?

I would rather protest for fairness that have some dillusion that I am from some high middle class backround, above those that leave school at 16 or choose to enter higher education.

Originally Posted by Tom

Qualifications don't help getting a job. They might help getting a job that isn't entry level or help you progress a little bit faster but subtract the three years and it probably works out about the same. there is no use whatsoever in getting a degree and not doing anything with it, as many do.

Of course qualifications help get a better job - Tom it seems you criticise any lifestyle choice but your own.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Tom

Students should just go and get a proper job

Most are just a waste of time who only go for loans and to avoid getting a proper job. Daft protests like this don't help their cause or help them be taken more seriously

Very True
Tom.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Tom

Qualifications don't help getting a job. They might help getting a job that isn't entry level or help you progress a little bit faster but subtract the three years and it probably works out about the same. there is no use whatsoever in getting a degree and not doing anything with it, as many do.

This is my point exactly. However, if people want to spend three years studying then it should be at their own expense. It's their choice after all and if they further choose to study for useless degrees that's their problem.

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Tom

Why isn't it fair?

Because I am PAYING for a job that I want -
In many cases this means greater responsibility -
In many cases this jobs benefits the whole of society - Law, Science, Maths, Medicine, Internation Relations - these all need additional knowledge to benefit SOCIETY.
These fields give money and help back to society - Therefore I think it is only fair some funding comes from society. As funding would go to Trident or Job Seekers Allowance.

Your view seems to adopt the thatcherite view that there is NO society.

[ange7]

Originally Posted by Tom

60 is more or less the end of your working life, you want a degree to supplement your working life. So yes it is fair considering how little you'll actually pay off your loan every month anyway. Why isn't it fair?

It's not fair because
a) once they graduate and are earning they are paying bucket loads of more tax than if they sat at home watching Deal or know deal. Get it? The money tax payers pay to train them comes back in the first 10 years of their working life
b) It's an investment in the community... like health care, like early and secondary education. You want ALL users to ALWAYS pay? That's where the logic of your argument leads.
The issue is how do you see society? As a a group of individual who all looks out for number one... or as a community who all chip in for what's best for EVERYONE.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Judas

How on earth is this a daft protest? I suppose you think it is best to do (exactally what I am doing!) and just complain about injustices online? This is active politics - this is making a point about injustice in our country. I plan to work for what I have in life, but I can't afford to fund or pay for a £9000 a year education system. What counts as a proper job, working in Marks and Spencers as a Manager?

I do think the violence is self-defeating though.

Go back a hundred years when woman were campaigning for the vote, the Suffragetts were out there planting bombs, starting fires etc; they did more harm than good to their cause, the same can be said here.

[ange7]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It is your decision to pursue education into university, it is your investment. The whole of society may benefit from some select degrees, I dont deny that. Students wont have to pay the money until after they've left and they're earning over £21,000, plus the Universities have to prove they're doing more to enable lower earners to get a degree if they choose to charge the full amount; something that has been forgotten. University shouldnt be for the richest, and no I do not think that, dont put words in my mouth.

lol
"dont put words in my mouth"
but you typed.
"it is your investment"
Yours words.... your mouth. Don't choke on them now.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Judas

I don't expect others to pay for it - I think that would be just as unfair as the proposed system. But I do believe that we should have some investment - is it fair that I live in debt untill I am 60 because I wanted a further education?

I do not think that tuition fees should treble to £9000 a year, and if you think that is right you obviously have no idea of how any liberal-democracy like the one we live in functions. It just can't happen.

Yes, I believe if you want go into higher education (or further education) then you should have to pay for it, and if it takes you until you're 60 to repay it, then so be it. Rather that than have someone on a really low wage paying for your degree through their taxes.

As for your final paragraph, what you're effectively saying is, if I don't agree with you then I don't understand the politics of my own country. I work in politics, so I do have a pretty good grounding in what democracy means.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by ange7

lol
"dont put words in my mouth"
but you typed.
"it is your investment"
Yours words.... your mouth. Don't choke on them now.

Those were my words, although I did not say that the system should "promote education just for the rich kids who's "daddies" are cashed up"

Not that hard to understand is it.