[Pyramid*]

I've waited to see how this thread was going before putting up this post - this might throw some perspective on 'both sides of the argument' (in respect of selfish or brave act etc).

My father took his own life some years ago. I don't want to go into the reasons why, but suffice to say, the reasons for him doing so were that he saw no other way out - but in making his choice, what happened simply was that the matters that he had created, had caused, would not go away, and ultimately - as an only child, it was me alone who had to endure almost 2 years of 'clearing up what had been left behind'.

Seven years on, I still fleet between a range of emotions. Guilt that he felt he couldn't tell people before making his choice. Distraught at the sheer hell he must have gone through psychologically that he felt that was his only option. Anger at being left to deal with what he couldn't - but expected me (and I say me, which will become clear) to deal with instead. Sadness, hurt, frustration, bewilderment. It completely changed me, certainly in the first 2 years and ultimately has had a lasting effect - and not for the good.

My father chose to download instructions on how to disable the C.A.T. in his car, then meticulously left 7 folders/files, detailing all of the problems, all the paperwork, documentation etc - with instructions left for me on who to contact for which respective 'matter'. thoughtful some would say? I didn't say that - I felt incredibly angry and bitter. I also felt distressed that this was being carefully planned in an attempt to 'make it easier' for me in it's own warped way. Once he had attended to that, he considered the best place to be was the garage at the family home - and that is where he died through carbon monoxide poisoing. In a place where he kne it would be me that found him.

It completely tore the family (by that I mean aunt/uncles etc).

The final 'kick in the stomach' for me (yes, I know some wil say I am being self absorbed here), but a letter was left for my mother - apologising. To my mother only (who had severe mental issues and eventually was sectioned). No letter left for me - the only child - who he knew would be the one left to deal with the aftermath. Hurt? Doesn't begin to describe it. Selfish on my part - absolutely, but hurt was uppermost.

My father's suicide drove me far too close to following on in the same way - and the only thing that stopped me was knowing what it feels like for the people like me. I could not put that devastation (and I don't use that word lightly) that it causes, onto anyone I ever cared about. It has resonating effects that simply will never go away.

To anyone on this thread who has these suicidal feeling wash over them - or feels the desire to attempt - you have no idea how much it destroys those who are left. Nothing I can ever put down in writing can articulate enough the damage caused to those left behind. I certainly cannot tell anyone not to consider suicide, but what I can tell you is: whatever you are feeling that may make you want to consider it, should you be successful - those you leave behind will carry the feeling you had, multiplied by 100 - for the rest of their lives. I don't think anyone's loved ones deserve that.

[lostalex]

^^ i believe him.

To all those who glorify or try to justify suicide in any way shape or form. It is a selfish, hurtful act that only puts exponential pain on those that have ever cared for you.

I would never call suicide "cowardly" as some would, but it is ABSOLUTELY selfish.

Very sorry for your loss Pyramid.

[Angus]

Aw Pyramid, I can only imagine the hurt and loss you must still feel, and I hope that everyone on here, on reading your tragic story, will understand the utter devastation it would cause their loved ones.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

To all those who glorify or try to justify suicide in any way shape or form. It is a selfish, hurtful act that only puts exponential pain on those that have ever cared for you.

Oh FFS quit talking about it like its a criminal act. And quit making stupid irrelevent remarks...nobody has glorified it on this thread.

and get over the whole selfish thing. Nobody is selfless.

Plus, if you really insist on blasting suicidal people as if they are committing an atrocious act...

consider them well and truly punished when they inflict the death penalty on themselves. Or is that not enough punishment?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by lostalex

^^ i believe him.

To all those who glorify or try to justify suicide in any way shape or form. It is a selfish, hurtful act that only puts exponential pain on those that have ever cared for you.

I would never call suicide "cowardly" as some would, but it is ABSOLUTELY selfish.

Very sorry for your loss Pyramid.

Nobody has tried to glorify suicide. We are just suggesting that we do not know what a person who commits suicide is feeling, sometimes when trapped, they may see no other alternative to escape and feel that their friends/family are better off without them, obviously that is not the case, but that is how they feel. Linked to serious mental health issues also majority of the time, their brain may see things in a very different light to ours.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Depressed? How depressed were you? A little hacked off with life being unfair, or feeling that everything good in life had been removed from you and there was no chance of it ever being returned? So depressed you lose all interest in art music and all that you consider good in life?

How about being so depressed you just wanted to lie in bed and stay there till you died?

Ever gone to sleep and seen dead bodies, decayed corpses even when you wake in sweat the bodies are still there. Seen friends die over and over again in dreams that just keep coming back and feel you should have died either with them or in their place?

Its a funny thing the mind, it can cope with some heavy duty emotional trauma and bounce right back and then sometimes small upsets can cause it to spiral down into a deep abyss where self loathing is about all its capable of.

Well thanks for comparing the death of my brother + father within 4 months of each other to "a little unfair". It's pretty narrowminded to belittle me just because I don't live in a ****ing mortuary or whatever unique Hell it is you're describing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

^^ i believe him.

To all those who glorify or try to justify suicide in any way shape or form. It is a selfish, hurtful act that only puts exponential pain on those that have ever cared for you.

I would never call suicide "cowardly" as some would, but it is ABSOLUTELY selfish.

Very sorry for your loss Pyramid.

excuse me but not one person in this thread tried to "glorify" suicide.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

To be fair, you're pretty narrow minded to say stigma doesn't exist. And you make getting help sound as easy as going for a check up. You really have some pretty warped and stiff views.
Have you taken into account that some families don't want to know if they find out you're mentally ill? It's not all lovey dovey and support. Families deal with it in all sorts of different ways and sometimes it's to push the 'bad seed' so to say, away. Which pushes people closer to the point of no return. I've seen your type before, the over bearing know it all type who thinks everything can be solved by just doing. You also presume loads, hope nobody has ever taken your 'advice'.

To be fair, you are still a very young man who has had very little experience of life, so you are not really equipped to comment on where I'm coming from on this issue, so I'll have to make allowances for your naivety. You have deliberately misinterpreted what I have said but then that is your usual modus operandi on this forum in order to try and score points - I sussed you out a long time ago

It's hypocritical to accuse me of being narrow minded when you have clearly already stereotyped me and "presume" to know me. I have offered no advice whatsoever on this thread or any other to anyone, just given my opinion which doesn't happen to jive with yours -(oh dear, what a shame, never mind) - so get over yourself FFS.

I really don't give a toss about your ill-formed views, most of which are based on what you have read or been told by others, rather than what you have actually lived and experienced yourself Unfortunately, that is the curse of youth so go patronise someone who gives a sh*t about your views

[InOne]

Originally Posted by angus58

To be fair, you are still a very young man who has had very little experience of life, so you are not really equipped to comment on where I'm coming from on this issue, so I'll have to make allowances for your naivety. You have deliberately misinterpreted what I have said but then that is your usual modus operandi on this forum in order to try and score points - I sussed you out a long time ago

It's hypocritical to accuse me of being narrow minded when you have clearly already stereotyped me and "presume" to know me. I have offered no advice whatsoever on this thread or any other to anyone, just given my opinion which doesn't happen to jive with yours -(oh dear, what a shame, never mind) - so get over yourself FFS.

I really don't give a toss about your ill-formed views, most of which are based on what you have read or been told by others, rather than what you have actually lived and experienced yourself Unfortunately, that is the curse of youth so go patronise someone who gives a sh*t about your views

I think you love yourself a bit too much sweetie. There is nothing 'suss' with me, I tell it how it is lol You seemed to dodge every point I made with total bullshit. You were wrong and got called up on it, so you make a long winding post that amounts to pretty much nothing.

It's good to take people down a peg or two.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

Nobody has tried to glorify suicide. We are just suggesting that we do not know what a person who commits suicide is feeling, sometimes when trapped, they may see no other alternative to escape and feel that their friends/family are better off without them, obviously that is not the case, but that is how they feel. Linked to serious mental health issues also majority of the time, their brain may see things in a very different light to ours.

I understand what you're saying, but feeling suicidal is usually the end result of a period of deep depression, grief or some traumatic event - it is not the beginning point. I am simply saying that there is help out there if you seek it out and prompt intervention can often help, whether it be medication, counselling or both. Your first step is your GP, and you have to be totally honest about how you are feeling. Depression is well recognised now, as are behaviour signposts of serious mental health issues, and there are medications available to help you cope which, along with counselling, can be a lifesaver in every sense of the word.

[Vicky.]

Medication and counselling dont work for everyone though. I know from experience.

Counselling made me worse, and medication sent me totally nutty

Its all well and good saying everyone who is depressed should seek help,. but the 'help' does not necessarily help.

[InOne]

Angus you're too old and out of touch. You might have 'life experience', but we're talking about the here and now.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by InOne

Angus you're too old and out of touch...

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Medication and counselling dont work for everyone though. I know from experience.

Counselling made me worse, and medication sent me totally nutty

Its all well and good saying everyone who is depressed should seek help,. but the 'help' does not necessarily help.

Straightforward depression is one thing, but if it accompanies an underlying mental health issue(s) that's another - even more imperative to get yourself checked out.

I have to admit the medication I was put on was totally impractical for me as it made me fairly out of it and I couldn't afford to be, having to work and look after two small children at the time without any support, but the counselling helped inasmuch it allowed me to vocalise a lot of stuff I had kept hidden for so long and confront various issues. I also followed various strategies based on diversionary tactics, but I'm certainly not suggesting that what worked for me would work for everyone, people may need different interventions and it may be trial and error to find the best ones.

[Angus]

InOne - you're too young and haven't even got "in touch" yet. Till you do, stop patronising old ladies.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by angus58

Straightforward depression is one thing, but if it accompanies an underlying mental health issue(s) that's another - even more imperative to get yourself checked out.

I have to admit the medication I was put on was totally impractical for me as it made me fairly out of it and I couldn't afford to be, having to work and look after two small children at the time without any support, but the counselling helped inasmuch it allowed me to vocalise a lot of stuff I had kept hidden for so long and confront various issues. I also followed various strategies based on diversionary tactics, but I'm certainly not suggesting that what worked for me would work for everyone, people may need different interventions and it may be trial and error to find the best ones.

I was one of the weird ones who eventually just snapped out of it, with no help as such.

They had me on citalopram to start with, and it made me really really bad. I was lashing out at everyone, the moodswings were awful and I still to this day say it made me worse.

Counselling, they made me remember things from my youth, and talk about it when I didnt WANT to talk about it, and brought back loads of terrible memories, which again, made me worse.

I guess though, if you are feeling suicidal and tell the doctors that, they could section you...but again, I dont think this does much good if your mind is set.

The docs are still trying to force pills down my neck now, despite me being ok. I have a stash of fluoxetine downstairs, that I have been saving for months as they are basically pressuring me to get them. I refuse to take them when I dont need them, but they wont listen

[InOne]

I have more than you probably, you're very closed minded.

[Zippy]

No one is happy all of the time, but some people feel as if they can never find happiness. Some people feel as if their entire life is devoted to nothing but pain and hurt and loneliness. Every day is a struggle, and every breath a fight for survival. These people have a deep understanding of the word Depression.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by lostalex

^^ i believe him.

To all those who glorify or try to justify suicide in any way shape or form. It is a selfish, hurtful act that only puts exponential pain on those that have ever cared for you.

I would never call suicide "cowardly" as some would, but it is ABSOLUTELY selfish.

Very sorry for your loss Pyramid.

Oh Jesus Christ.

It ISN'T SELFISH!
YOU are being selfish by asking the person to live through pain and suffer just because you don't want to loose them.

If people actually cared that much about the person who committed suicide, they would of shown it more or would of recognized their cries for help.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Patrick

If people actually cared that much about the person who committed suicide, they would of shown it more or would of recognized their cries for help.

This isnt very fair, there is not always signs, some people do it totally out of the blue :/

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by angus58

Straightforward depression is one thing, but if it accompanies an underlying mental health issue(s) that's another - even more imperative to get yourself checked out.

I have to admit the medication I was put on was totally impractical for me as it made me fairly out of it and I couldn't afford to be, having to work and look after two small children at the time without any support, but the counselling helped inasmuch it allowed me to vocalise a lot of stuff I had kept hidden for so long and confront various issues. I also followed various strategies based on diversionary tactics, but I'm certainly not suggesting that what worked for me would work for everyone, people may need different interventions and it may be trial and error to find the best ones.

But unfortunately we still live in a society where some mental health still holds a stigma, and help is not always available, not the help that they feel they need. Every person's brain is fine tuned uniquely, so what may work to help one may not work for another. And trial and error is all good and well, but that doesn't help the person right when they need it...

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

excuse me but not one person in this thread tried to "glorify" suicide.

Then i obviously wasn't talking about YOU then, was i?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Then i obviously wasn't talking about YOU then, was i?

Oh do stop getting pissy.

Nobody has glorified suicide, people have just offered opinions in a debate.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Oh Jesus Christ.

It ISN'T SELFISH!
YOU are being selfish by asking the person to live through pain and suffer just because you don't want to loose them.

If people actually cared that much about the person who committed suicide, they would of shown it more or would of recognized their cries for help.

wow. what great logic. If someone commits suicide, it is the fault of all the people that loved them. What a wonderful messege to send.

How very convenient to blame the surviving members.

Disgusting. Sorry but that is DISGUSTING logic.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I was one of the weird ones who eventually just snapped out of it, with no help as such.

They had me on citalopram to start with, and it made me really really bad. I was lashing out at everyone, the moodswings were awful and I still to this day say it made me worse.

Counselling, they made me remember things from my youth, and talk about it when I didnt WANT to talk about it, and brought back loads of terrible memories, which again, made me worse.

I guess though, if you are feeling suicidal and tell the doctors that, they could section you...but again, I dont think this does much good if your mind is set.

The docs are still trying to force pills down my neck now, despite me being ok. I have a stash of fluoxetine downstairs, that I have been saving for months as they are basically pressuring me to get them. I refuse to take them when I dont need them, but they wont listen

I think that medication, if possible, should only be a short term solution, and cognitive behaviour therapy is probably more beneficial in the long run to manage clinical depression. I was always worried about getting too dependent on the pills. I have found I can cope without anti-depressants now by implementing the strategies that work for me to divert my mood. I do believe that depression is better recognised and managed these days but treatments have to be tailored to the individual - what works for one may not for another.

Like you said, not everyone wants or needs to confront bad stuff from their past. Often the depression arises because that self imposed barrier on one's memories and thoughts has somehow broken down, so the last thing you need is to be forced to remember bad things.

However, people suffering with serious mental illnesses such as schizophrenia will obviously need to take lifelong, regular medication.