[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by arista

Maybe
but David and Nick
can stop there Funding for Breaking UK Rules
Fact.

Having the ability to do something is one thing. Having the balls to carry it out, is entirely another. That's the problem. Fact.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by InOne

Can't believe C4 actually had to apologize for 'Undercover Mosque'.

Are you sure this is true? I know the CPS and the London Met ordered an investigation by Ofcom, but Channel 4 were completely aquitted and stood by the documentary as far as I know. They even broadcasted a follow-up episode.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Are you sure this is true? I know the CPS and the London Met ordered an investigation by Ofcom, but Channel 4 were completely aquitted and stood by the documentary as far as I know. They even broadcasted a follow-up episode.

I think they were meant to but might not have. I saw it on the news the day after it was shown. It was on a good few years ago now so kinda hard to remember lol

[Angus]

Having now watched Dispatches I can only say I am proud and delighted to be a Kafir, as I would have absolutely no wish to share any heaven that is populated by these hate filled, bigoted, totally deluded, ignorant morons.

[InOne]

Hmmmm wasn't really as hard hitting as I thought it was going to be. They seemed to loop the same clips a lot and the doc didn't seem to go anywhere. Almost seemed they didn't have much to talk about the last half hour

[MTVN]

Well, Pyramid and Angus, you two couldnt have been more wrong it seems - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/fe...rest-channel-4

"Police have arrested a man concerning alleged assaults on children at a mosque after viewing a Channel 4 documentary screened on Monday"

You can remove the chip from that shoulder of yours now

[billy123]

Originally Posted by InOne

Hmmmm wasn't really as hard hitting as I thought it was going to be. They seemed to loop the same clips a lot and the doc didn't seem to go anywhere. Almost seemed they didn't have much to talk about the last half hour

Yep they almost completely ignored the hate speech aspect of it they just sort of skirted round it to concentrate on the child abuse aspect they bottled the opportunity somewhat.

[MTVN]

Only saw the first half hour but yeah it didnt seem particularly insightful from what I watched of it, their Undercover Mosque documentary was a lot better

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

MTVN your seriously too mature for your age its like your 40 or something go get drunk a piss on a war memorial

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Scott

MTVN your seriously too mature for your age its like your 40 or something go get drunk a piss on a war memorial

I do get compared to an old man sometimes but I never talk politics or anything like that to my friends, only to people who are interested

[Angus]

[QUOTE=MTVN;4116238]Well, Pyramid and Angus, you two couldnt have been more wrong it seems - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/fe...rest-channel-4

"Police have arrested a man concerning alleged assaults on children at a mosque after viewing a Channel 4 documentary screened on Monday"

You can remove the chip from that shoulder of yours now[/QUOTE

Well MTVN, that should be "those chips from your shoulders" to be grammatically correct, but your concern for my peace of mind is both unsolicited and unnecessary, but, gee, thanks anyway.

I don't take seriously most of the ridiculous comments and PC views on this forum since they're spouted by kids, most of whom still live with mummy and daddy, have never done a day's work, think the world owes them a living, and don't contribute anything whatever to society as yet. It's not really their fault to a great extent since they have been brainwashed by the left wing propaganda which is endemic in our colleges and university and almost as much a problem as the brainwashing going on in these faith schools. Unfortunately, those that have been brainwashed are the last people to be aware of it

There will always be ignorant and bigoted people, and the fact that this documentary pointed out where the true ignorance and bigotry lies clearly doesn't sit well with the liberal apologists on this forum.

I find it totally predictable that you would find some way of attempting to defend the indefensible, even though it was evidence presented for universal consumption, and the footage viewed was not tampered with (as would be the normal accusations levelled at such exposees)

The fact that "a man" has been arrested for assaults on children doesn't go anywhere near far enough to bringing these bigots to heel - how about arrests for inciting hatred, violence and racism against anyone who is NOT a muslim? That's okay is it, or are you going to talk yourself into believing this is not really a serious problem? If this had been a Christian, Jewish, Hindu or any other faith school teaching such intolerance against Muslims, it would have been a different story, and no doubt they would have felt the FULL force of the law.

Be grateful I've even bothered to respond to your post since I usually ignore your drivel:

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well, Pyramid and Angus, you two couldnt have been more wrong it seems - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/fe...rest-channel-4

"Police have arrested a man concerning alleged assaults on children at a mosque after viewing a Channel 4 documentary screened on Monday"

You can remove the chip from that shoulder of yours now

I'll remove the chip when I see the man actually prosecuted and jailed...... being arrested means nothing. Being found guilty, convicted and given a prison sentence is a world away from an arrest.

*Checks to see if chip is still firmly in place on shoulder. Happy to confirm it is*

As for the Guardian link:- as suspected - complete denial regarding the hatred and bigotry that is being taught (remember- there was a 'younger' teacher/lecturer, with at least 2 far older staff members also present whilst this young man spoke about the 'infedels',Hindus etc..... and not one of them batted an eyelid, nor disagreed with this younger lecturer.....

The Birmingham footage was obtained by an undercover reporter posing as a volunteer, using a hidden camera. It showed a preacher at Darul Uloom, a fee-paying school in Small Heath, making offensive remarks about Hindus, ranting about non-Muslims and telling pupils they face torture in the afterlife if they adopt western customs such as dancing or listening to music. He tells them to avoid more liberal Muslims. "The person who's got less than a fistful of beard, then you should stay away from him the same way you should stay away from a serpent or a snake." Another group are told in an assembly: "The disbelievers, they are the worst of all people. The Hindus do, they drink piss, I've told you this. Do they have any intellect? No."

After meeting West Midlands police, headteacher Mujahid Aziz said half-term would begin a week early. Pupils will not return to classes until March.

"What people will see in that clip is completely contrary to what we teach at the school about harmony and awareness of different faiths," said Aziz. "Our concern now is for the safety of children and people coming to the mosque, because we are worried that some people will get completely the wrong impression once they have watched this programme."

John Hemming, the Liberal Democrat MP for Birmingham Yardley, criticised the documentary: "If Channel 4 thinks this is a school where racism and intolerance is accepted in any way, they have got their facts seriously wrong. [The school] have already had hate mail, and now they are having to close for the safety of their pupils. This kind of documentary is ideal fodder for the [far-right] English Defence League. Channel 4 is putting the safety of children at risk by criticising a school which is doing its job properly."

got it completely wrong eh? Got the wrong impression huh? Here's a little bit of upfront truth : the camera recorded exactly what was going on. The facts cannot be disputed in what was being lectured and in the vein in was being lectured - with older members of staff neither disagreeing or chastising the younger lecturer. Why? Because what was recorded there, was exactly what was going on. The only reason the denial factor, 'completely contrary to what we teach' retorts have come about, is for one reason only: the were caught out. No one is telling me for one second, that this was a isolated lecture, with two older members present who said nothing during it.

As for John Hemming, he needs to take take the blinkers off, clean his ears out and go spend some time at the Opticians. A short spell at with a good psychiatrist might not be remiss either if he seriously thinks that the school in question wasn't advocating racism and intolerance.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I do get compared to an old man sometimes but I never talk politics or anything like that to my friends, only to people who are interested

That might not be such a bad idea, given that you think a man being arrested, actually means anything will come of it.

Me? I'm happy to sit back, patientlly and see how it pans out.....let's see if this bigoted, abusive, control freak intent on brainwashing and beating children up, is actually found guilty and convicted.

Until then, my stance remains.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Yep they almost completely ignored the hate speech aspect of it they just sort of skirted round it to concentrate on the child abuse aspect they bottled the opportunity somewhat.

Yep, didn't seem much of a conclusion. I mean the kids were getting beat was by one guy and maybe a few others which were caught on camera can be sorted. But the hate speech thing was going out to loads. And I can't believe the doc just showed a few lofty statements which pretty much denied all responsibility for it anyway.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I'll remove the chip when I see the man actually prosecuted and jailed...... being arrested means nothing. Being found guilty, convicted and given a prison sentence is a world away from an arrest.

*Checks to see if chip is still firmly in place on shoulder. Happy to confirm it is*

As for the Guardian link:- as suspected - complete denial regarding the hatred and bigotry that is being taught (remember- there was a 'younger' teacher/lecturer, with at least 2 far older staff members also present whilst this young man spoke about the 'infedels',Hindus etc..... and not one of them batted an eyelid, nor disagreed with this younger lecturer.....



got it completely wrong eh? Got the wrong impression huh? Here's a little bit of upfront truth : the camera recorded exactly what was going on. The facts cannot be disputed in what was being lectured and in the vein in was being lectured - with older members of staff neither disagreeing or chastising the younger lecturer. Why? Because what was recorded there, was exactly what was going on. The only reason the denial factor, 'completely contrary to what we teach' retorts have come about, is for one reason only: the were caught out. No one is telling me for one second, that this was a isolated lecture, with two older members present who said nothing during it.

As for John Hemming, he needs to take take the blinkers off, clean his ears out and go spend some time at the Opticians. A short spell at with a good psychiatrist might not be remiss either if he seriously thinks that the school in question wasn't advocating racism and intolerance.

What do you expect of the Guardian and the sort of people who read that rag? If the school is getting hate mail, it's no more than they deserve, and poetic justice in fact, considering their hate filled rants, and offensive use of the word Kafir, the Arabic version of the "N" word to describe anyone who doesn't share their medieval, intolerant and barbaric interpretation of what is purported to be a peaceful religion.

And what a coincidence! On the very occasion there just HAPPENS to be a hidden camera, this ISOLATED lecture took place, unchecked and unopposed by senior staff! And it's never happened before, and won't again. Yeah right. The trouble with people like this is that they assume we're all as stupid and ignorant as they are to believe such a load of BS. But then again there are a fair few Guardian readers on this forum judging by the drivel I've been reading lately.

[BB_Eye]

Out of everybody I saw in last night's show. I disliked the Birmingham councillor the most. Using the race card in his pathetic defence of local extremist madrassas and their institutional brainwashing and bullying. His ilk are the very reason such places have remained immune to scrutiny for so long.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Out of everybody I saw in last night's show. I disliked the Birmingham councillor the most. Using the race card in his pathetic defence of local extremist madrassas and their institutional brainwashing and bullying. His ilk are the very reason such places have remained immune to scrutiny for so long.

He plays the race card because he CAN and probably always has - that's what the result of 13 years' of New Labour has done to this country - silencing any dissent of their lunatic and shambolic multicultural policy, imposed on the British people without any proper social structures in place, by encouraging people to scream "racist" at the slightest murmur of criticism.

This government needs to grow a massive pair of balls and do something about these vipers in our nest. I don't care if they're British or not - they are preaching hate, incitement to violence and intolerance, and should feel the full force of the law in the same way you or I would in similar circumstances.

[InOne]

That is what I never get about these "community leaders" all they do is pass the blame on and claim they're being victimized, and yet they never seem to ask the community to help stop it. Why aren't Muslims crowding in the streets trying to stop extremism, talking to their own people? And any group that are to speak against it who aren't Muslims are instantly labelled 'racist' or 'Islamophobe'.

[arista]

"Why aren't Muslims crowding in the streets trying to stop extremism,"



Yes that is how Terror Gangs get through.


This Docu' has
given UK Muslims a Stink.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by InOne

That is what I never get about these "community leaders" all they do is pass the blame on and claim they're being victimized, and yet they never seem to ask the community to help stop it. Why aren't Muslims crowding in the streets trying to stop extremism, talking to their own people? And any group that are to speak against it who aren't Muslims are instantly labelled 'racist' or 'Islamophobe'.

True. Some label others because they are terrified of hearing the truth and are in denial.....and some because they want to belong to the goody goody two shoes brigade.....and some because they are as thick as a planet full of short planks. And some of course because they simply want votes (power) at any price.

No doubt before the last war people warned against the uprising culture of Hitlers Germany and many did not listen enough........We all know how fatal that was..... Sadly History always repeats itself......With increasingly disasterous results......

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

Well MTVN, that should be "those chips from your shoulders" to be grammatically correct, but your concern for my peace of mind is both unsolicited and unnecessary, but, gee, thanks anyway.

I don't take seriously most of the ridiculous comments and PC views on this forum since they're spouted by kids, most of whom still live with mummy and daddy, have never done a day's work, think the world owes them a living, and don't contribute anything whatever to society as yet. It's not really their fault to a great extent since they have been brainwashed by the left wing propaganda which is endemic in our colleges and university and almost as much a problem as the brainwashing going on in these faith schools. Unfortunately, those that have been brainwashed are the last people to be aware of it

There will always be ignorant and bigoted people, and the fact that this documentary pointed out where the true ignorance and bigotry lies clearly doesn't sit well with the liberal apologists on this forum.

I find it totally predictable that you would find some way of attempting to defend the indefensible, even though it was evidence presented for universal consumption, and the footage viewed was not tampered with (as would be the normal accusations levelled at such exposees)

The fact that "a man" has been arrested for assaults on children doesn't go anywhere near far enough to bringing these bigots to heel - how about arrests for inciting hatred, violence and racism against anyone who is NOT a muslim? That's okay is it, or are you going to talk yourself into believing this is not really a serious problem? If this had been a Christian, Jewish, Hindu or any other faith school teaching such intolerance against Muslims, it would have been a different story, and no doubt they would have felt the FULL force of the law.

Be grateful I've even bothered to respond to your post since I usually ignore your drivel:

Wow, what a pointless comment, only the last paragraph actually held any relevance to the discussion. I suppose I'll correct you on the rest of the crap you wrote although I dont know why I should bother

You're right about one thing; I do live with my parents, I am only 17 after all, but no I do not think "society" owes me a living, on the contrary in fact. Nor am I "left wing", I find the classification of people into left and right pretty pointless, I am neither.

You were arguing that the authorities would do nothing and take no action, straight after the documentary a man was arrested, therefore you were incorrect. I dont know if they're investigating whether they incited racial hatred or not and I dont particularly care, I dont even think such laws should exist but that's another matter.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I'll remove the chip when I see the man actually prosecuted and jailed...... being arrested means nothing...

I am aware that an arrest does not necessarily result in a prosecution but I never said it did. I was just pointing out that immidiately after the program was aired the authorities took some action, something you were adamant would not happen

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You were arguing that the authorities would do nothing and take no action, straight after the documentary a man was arrested, therefore you were incorrect. I dont know if they're investigating whether they incited racial hatred or not and I dont particularly care, I dont even think such laws should exist but that's another matter.

I am aware that an arrest does not necessarily result in a prosecution but I never said it did. I was just pointing out that immidiately after the program was aired the authorities took some action, something you were adamant would not happen

You don't particularly care if they incited racial hatred or not? I'm astounded and I find that viewpoint concerning to say the very least and definately bordering on being ignorant to the issues it surrounds. You don't care that young children are taught to hate with a passion? You don't think such laws should exist - you think it's acceptable that one set of human beings should be taught to hate, loathe and utterly despise another set of human being simply because they don't follow the same religious backgrounds and beliefs? Good God. How can anyone not care about such hatred being taught or incited - its no wonder that there is so much trouble in the world. It's from such extreme manical teachings that lead to extremists carrying out acts of terrorism etc - because such hatred in instilled from young ages. Regardless of the culture, creed, religion of those concerned.


If what I have read as being reported is correct: the only reason that the police even took this action was due to the amount of complaints from members of the public after the programme was shown. If there is truth to this at all (which none of us will be in a position to clarify or not) - it would show that the police acted only because of the public reaction- rather than act because the law has been broken. I'm quite entitled to have that opinion MTVN. I may or may not be correct, but it doesn't invalidate my right to state what I believe. I believe the police did nothing to actually act upon laws of this land being broken until public reaction was gauged.

from the very newspaper link you qutoted earlier: the police saw the clips days before the show was aired, but didn't act until after it was shown.

West Yorkshire police issued a statement regarding the arrest: "We have recently become aware of a number of incidents of alleged assault at a mosque and just before the weekend were able to view edited footage of the alleged incident

Reason for the delay? If you ask me, they waited to see what public reaction was - possibly hoping for there to be no outcry - and only acted on the arrest when the footage was aired and the public did cry out.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

You don't particularly care if they incited racial hatred or not? I'm astounded and I find that viewpoint concerning to say the very least and definately bordering on being ignorant to the issues it surrounds. You don't care that young children are taught to hate with a passion? You don't think such laws should exist - you think it's acceptable that one set of human beings should be taught to hate, loathe and utterly despise another set of human being simply because they don't follow the same religious backgrounds and beliefs? Good God. How can anyone not care about such hatred being taught or incited - its no wonder that there is so much trouble in the world. It's from such extreme manical teachings that lead to extremists carrying out acts of terrorism etc - because such hatred in instilled from young ages. Regardless of the culture, creed, religion of those concerned.


If what I have read as being reported is correct: the only reason that the police even took this action was due to the amount of complaints from members of the public after the programme was shown. If there is truth to this at all (which none of us will be in a position to clarify or not) - it would show that the police acted only because of the public reaction- rather than act because the law has been broken. I'm quite entitled to have that opinion MTVN. I may or may not be correct, but it doesn't invalidate my right to state what I believe. I believe the police did nothing to actually act upon laws of this land being broken until public reaction was gauged.

from the very newspaper link you qutoted earlier: the police saw the clips days before the show was aired, but didn't act until after it was shown.


Reason for the delay? If you ask me, they waited to see what public reaction was - possibly hoping for there to be no outcry - and only acted on the arrest when the footage was aired and the public did cry out.

I dont think the "incitement to racial hatred" laws should exist because it's an infringement on freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is absolute and applies to all, we might consider it immoral for someone to advocate and extremist branch of Islam but I wouldnt make it illegal.

The only time I would consider "incitement" a crime is when there is no room for every persons free will, if they are compulsed to racially hate. Having said that maybe this is a case of that happening, as children are pretty susceptible at that age and will inevitably tend to believe what they are taught. So maybe I shouldnt have said I dont care and this may well truly be a case of inciting hatred, but generally speaking I am against such laws. Just as you state you are entitled to your opinion on the police here, so am I on incitement laws without being branded ignorant.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I dont think the "incitement to racial hatred" laws should exist because it's an infringement on freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is absolute and applies to all, we might consider it immoral for someone to advocate and extremist branch of Islam but I wouldnt make it illegal.

The only time I would consider "incitement" a crime is when there is no room for every persons free will, if they are compulsed to racially hate. Having said that maybe this is a case of that happening, as children are pretty susceptible at that age and will inevitably tend to believe what they are taught. So maybe I shouldnt have said I dont care and this may well truly be a case of inciting hatred, but generally speaking I am against such laws. Just as you state you are entitled to your opinion on the police here, so am I on incitement laws without being branded ignorant.

I'll address your final point before I go any further. I did not brand you anything, far less brand you ignorant. Context is the crucial point. I said quite specifically,

"I find that viewpoint concerning to say the very least and definately bordering on being ignorant to the issues it surrounds.

Not you, your viewpoint - and that viewpoint as being ignorant to the issues it surrounds.

Again, I am aghast that you feel freedom is speech means people can effectively say whatever they like, being taught whatever people wish them to be taught - and not expect such overt freedom of speech to have severe ramifications. One example: Klu Klux Klan. They said whatever they liked, they instilled their hatred to such proportions that it affected their behavior (burning people alive at the stake because they had a different colour of skin as a common occupation of the KKK, gang raping tender young males & females etc). That is why there respect has to be taught, respect and tolerance for all races, creed, religions -because without those 2 very important aspects (respect and tolerance) - the world may as well rip each other apart and all law enforcement agencies may as well hang up their boots and badges right now.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I'll address your final point before I go any further. I did not brand you anything, far less brand you ignorant. Context is the crucial point. I said quite specifically,

Not you, your viewpoint - and that viewpoint as being ignorant to the issues it surrounds.

Again, I am aghast that you feel freedom is speech means people can effectively say whatever they like, being taught whatever people wish them to be taught - and not expect such overt freedom of speech to have severe ramifications. One example: Klu Klux Klan. They said whatever they liked, they instilled their hatred to such proportions that it affected their behavior (burning people alive at the stake because they had a different colour of skin as a common occupation of the KKK, gang raping tender young males & females etc). That is why there respect has to be taught, respect and tolerance for all races, creed, religions -because without those 2 very important aspects (respect and tolerance) - the world may as well rip each other apart and all law enforcement agencies may as well hang up their boots and badges right now.

Well I'm aware my viewpoint on this may seem extreme but I believe that all people, no matter how reprehensible or immoral we consider them, have the right to speak whatever they so wish. I'm aware of the KKK & it's history, although lynchings was more their thing, I'm not aware of them having gang-raped anybody, but anyway yes I believe even they should have free speech. I absolutely agree that respect and tolerance should be advocated but I dont believe a viewpoint should be censored because we disagree with it; if we do not believe in free speech for those we despise than we dont believe in at all.

All human beings have free will at the end of the day, I entrust them to make their own decisions on what is right and what is wrong. If they listen to a speech by a member of the KKK, or the BNP for that matter, and take on board racist views and act on them then that was their responsbility and their choice to do so. The only time I think "incitement" should be a crime is if it leaves the individual no other choice, and if he is obliged in some way to act as someone tells him to. Other than that then an extremist or racist viewpoint should be condemned, given no credibility and considered immoral, but it should not be illegal.