[Angus]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Talk about putting words in my mouth. Physical and mental trauma? It's a walk in the park compared to the physical and mental trauma that is put upon the thing that the abortion is done to. That is until it sometimes gets a hole drilled in its head and brains sucked, then I suppose it suffers no more physical and mental trauma.


My position on abortion is not derived from religion. My position comes from logic and the fact that we come from a society that at least professes to value human life. I am, by far, more of a humanitarian than a religious person but the fact that you would write off anyone with an opinion starkly different to yours as a member of the "bible bashing, fire brimstone brigade" reveals how little you consider the possibility that you may be wrong. That being the case this will be my last post addressed to you in this topic.


I find it disturbing how you and others only think an abortion should be legal if there is no way it can live outside of the womb. Only when an abortion will not guarantee its death are you not in favor of it. You are a wonderful human being, angus.


I'll take being called a "misogynist" by someone like you as a compliment.

For someone who professes not to have a view based on religious beliefs your stance is straight from the bible belt, I think you delude yourself and that there must have been some degree of brainwashing involved to make you think the way you do (and I'm being charitable, since I would find it profoundly disturbing to imagine you could hold such views otherwise). I have said time and again that abortion is not for me, but I do not PRESUME to inflict my own personal beliefs on other human beings - I leave that to arrogant and sanctimonious people like yourself. You have absolutely no clue about the ramifications of what you are suggesting, and that to me shows a total lack of empathy, compassion or humanity for women - so I was completely on target with the accusation that you are a misogynist. I pity any woman you ever marry, and you better hope you are never put in the invidious position of having to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy because the baby is severely handicapped for example.

I take being despised by a misogynist like YOU as a massive compliment. You seem to have put all women who have sex firmly in the "slut" category! Real men can handle real opinions expressed by real women, not imaginary idealistic earth mothers who are supposed to breed and incubate babies even if they don't want them. You use sensationalist, graphic language to describe abortions, which are NOT the norm as you would know if you had a clue how a woman's body works, or how the vast majority of abortions are carried out.

And, YES, I am a wonderful human being compared to YOU my dear, who would quite happily DECIDE for others what is best for THEIR bodies, THEIR lives, THEIR emotional and physical wellbeing. At least I am not attempting to impose MY beliefs and opinions on total strangers with no thought given to how those strangers and their unwanted offspring will have to cope in the real world, as you go merrily on your way with no further input once you have successfully interfered to change the course of THEIR lives.

You have still not addressed the issue of abortions carried out because of birth defects, deformities, genetic diseases, etc, as no doubt it is taken as read that you would be happy to condemn a baby to a lifetime of pain, suffering and sorrow just so long as it's ALIVE using whatever rigid definition of life you adhere to. Nor have you discussed the morality of forcing a woman to carry her rapist's baby, or a victim of incest having to carry her abuser's child. In fact you have responded not at all to some of the points I raised - HOW VERY CONVENIENT.

Answer my post or not - who cares? Your views are laughably naive and ill thought out. You completely skirt the issue of personal CHOICE. I would love someone to dictate to you what YOU can and can't do with and to your OWN body. But being a man, you will never have to worry about having to ever make such a heartrending decision, so pontificate all you like, your empty words are but chaff blowing in the wind since, thankfully, you and others who set themselves up as moral arbiters over others, will never get their own way on this issue. Of that I am 100% sure.

Just in case you, personally, weren't aware, men no longer have the upper hand when it comes to women's rights and freedoms - so GET USED TO IT. Take my advice and stick to numbers and statistics - they can be manipulated and arranged to always give you the answers you want. Human beings cannot. Come to think of it, being a mathematician actually explains a lot about the workings of your mind.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

this is something that annoys me actually, that the the minute you say you're anti-abortion, people accuse you of being religious, like there is no other reason why you would be against it.

It is a natural assumption given that anti-abortionists bang on about the sanctity of life; that life begins at conception; that abortion is always murder; that women are merely vessels for the procreation of children; that sex is about procreation for women (note Liberty4eva's views on women having sex - sluts I believe he calls them). AND YET not a shred of empathy, compassion or understanding for the plight of a woman in an invidious situation.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by angus58

It is a natural assumption given that anti-abortionists bang on about the sanctity of life; that life begins at conception; that abortion is always murder; that women are merely vessels for the procreation of children; that sex is about procreation for women (note Liberty4eva's views on women having sex - sluts I believe he calls them). AND YET not a shred of empathy, compassion or understanding for the plight of a woman in an invidious situation.

ok, well you don't have to lump us all into one box though.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

We're all connected in this world, honey. If I unintentionally impregnate a woman I certainly won't have any kind of luxury. Maybe next time we're deciding whether or not to go to war we should ignore the females since they have the "luxury" of not doing the fighting? Like I say, we're all connected.

In this day and age with the technology available, the "physical dangers" are at a minimum and if there is a potential danger the body will almost always abort it naturally. And "emotional traumas"? Come on. Like I said earlier, women are raised to be weak people.

You try to spin it like I'm trying to "compel" women like they all innocently and without reason just randomly become pregnant. I don't compel them to have sex so I don't see how I'm compelling them to do anything. You tell me: Are women stupid? Do they not know what may happen if they sleep with a guy? Whenever this debate occurs it's always framed around bodily freedom but it ought to be framed around the freedom to be a slut without consequence because that's what it, for the most part, is about. You show me a rabid pro-choice female freak, and I'll bet money that she's a bona fide slut.

And, yeah, I know I'm gonna get hell from you and others for what I've said here but whatever. I'll take it with a smile.

Sounds very much like a misogynist to me!!!! On the premise that you yourself may have actually experienced sex with a woman outwith marriage, (ie; a slut in your words), it begs the question why someone with such 'high morals' would chose to sleep with a slut.

Which, in the main, really and truly, devalues anything you have to say in respect of any subject that involves a woman - whether it be abortion or the type of clothes she choses to wear.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

ok, well you don't have to lump us all into one box though.

I wasn't aware I had lumped you into any box. You stated earlier in this thread that you, personally, would never have an abortion, but you would not wish to impose your beliefs on anyone else. I took that as a pro choice stance, irrespective of your own personal beliefs, which is the same position I am coming from.

Now it appears you have taken offence because I am commenting on a position which is unequivocally anti abortion for ALL, and therefore anti choice. I stated that this viewpoint usually emanates from someone who holds a dogmatic point of view, usually derived from religious doctrine, which they seek to impose on to others. My main protagonist on this thread is most assuredly in that box, whereas you are not.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Sounds very much like a misogynist to me!!!! On the premise that you yourself may have actually experienced sex with a woman outwith marriage, (ie; a slut in your words), it begs the question why someone with such 'high morals' would chose to sleep with a slut.

Which, in the main, really and truly, devalues anything you have to say in respect of any subject that involves a woman - whether it be abortion or the type of clothes she choses to wear.

Yes, I found that particular rant of his about women in general very revealing and somewhat sinister.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by angus58

I wasn't aware I had lumped you into any box. You stated earlier in this thread that you, personally, would never have an abortion, but you would not wish to impose your beliefs on anyone else. I took that as a pro choice stance, irrespective of your own personal beliefs, which is the same position I am coming from.

Now it appears you have taken offence because I am commenting on a position which is unequivocally anti abortion for ALL, and therefore anti choice. I stated that this viewpoint usually emanates from someone who holds a dogmatic point of view, usually derived from religious doctrine, which they seek to impose on to others. My main protagonist on this thread is most assuredly in that box, whereas you are not.

ok, sorry I mis understood what you were saying then

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

ok, sorry I mis understood what you were saying then

No probs, I should have explained myself better