[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

How can a young person make an informed decision when his parents and other relations have drummed into him or her from day 1 that their religion is true and that they should believe in it without question?

The tradition of Jewish education goes back to biblical times. One of the basic duties of Jewish parents is to provide for the instruction of their children. The obligation to teach one's children is set forth in the first paragraph of the Shema Yisrael prayer: “Take to heart these instructions with which I charge you this day. Impress them upon your children. Recite them when you stay at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you get up. Bind them as sign on your hand and let them serve as a symbol on your forehead; inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and your gates.” (Deut 6:6-9).[wiki]

I am a little insulted that you think a trawl through Wikipedia allows you to question my faith or my grasp upon it.

You cannot cherry-pick bits and pieces from my faith and post them to strengthen your point when you have no grasp on the religion as a whole. Maybe if religious education was taught properly in schools, we would all be more understanding of each other's faiths and more respectful of other people's beliefs.

Most Jews I know - and that's quite a lot - have been brought up instructed in the religion but with free will to question and to choose. Not all of my family go to synagogue, some never go apart from weddings much like a large majority of people who would describe themselves as Christians. Many of us married outside the religion and our family is made up of more than one faith. Strangely to some perhaps, faith has never caused any kind of turmoil in our family. I do not question your disbelief in God, that is your belief and I have to assume it's something you've thought about. I am not asking you to be a Jew, I'm asking you to allow me to be one without ridicule.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

I am a little insulted that you think a trawl through Wikipedia allows you to question my faith or my grasp upon it.

You cannot cherry-pick bits and pieces from my faith and post them to strengthen your point when you have no grasp on the religion as a whole. Maybe if religious education was taught properly in schools, we would all be more understanding of each other's faiths and more respectful of other people's beliefs.

Most Jews I know - and that's quite a lot - have been brought up instructed in the religion but with free will to question and to choose. Not all of my family go to synagogue, some never go apart from weddings much like a large majority of people who would describe themselves as Christians. Many of us married outside the religion and our family is made up of more than one faith. Strangely to some perhaps, faith has never caused any kind of turmoil in our family. I do not question your disbelief in God, that is your belief and I have to assume it's something you've thought about. I am not asking you to be a Jew, I'm asking you to allow me to be one without ridicule.

What you mean is your a jew by tradition but not by religion.

Whatever it is its not religion. I am talking about the religion.

The religion that mutilates children, for example.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Youtube video

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

What you mean is your a jew by tradition but not by religion.

Whatever it is its not religion. I am talking about the religion.

The religion that mutilates children, for example.

So now I'm not a proper Jew in your eyes, and you feel your Wiki-knowledge of my religion allows you to make that call? You feel I'm not a Jew because my thinking isn't 5,000 years out of date? I am a Jew by birth, and I choose to follow the religion. I choose to. I was allowed to decide for myself whether or not I follow the religion by parents who were forward thinking and believed the choice was mine to make with no pressure.

You regard male circumcision as mutilation, that's your opinion. I don't know any Jewish boys who feel they have been mutilated. If I ever do, I'll pass on your concerns. And if that's the crusade you're choosing, I'm kind of surprised you haven't found something else to shout about that's more worth the shouting.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

So now I'm not a proper Jew in your eyes, and you feel your Wiki-knowledge of my religion allows you to make that call? You feel I'm not a Jew because my thinking isn't 5,000 years out of date? I am a Jew by birth, and I choose to follow the religion. I choose to. I was allowed to decide for myself whether or not I follow the religion by parents who were forward thinking and believed the choice was mine to make with no pressure.

You regard male circumcision as mutilation, that's your opinion. I don't know any Jewish boys who feel they have been mutilated. If I ever do, I'll pass on your concerns. And if that's the crusade you're choosing, I'm kind of surprised you haven't found something else to shout about that's more worth the shouting.

"I don't know any Jewish boys who feel they have been mutilated."

perhaps that is because it was their own parents who made it happen


rather than look at wiki, an excellent source of information that is transparent and peer reviewed, unlike say the Talmud, maybe you can explain why it is deemed necessary to slice off a childs foreskin in the name of ... tradition?

Originally Posted by Livia

So now I'm not a proper Jew in your eyes, and you feel your Wiki-knowledge of my religion allows you to make that call? You feel I'm not a Jew because my thinking isn't 5,000 years out of date? I am a Jew by birth, and I choose to follow the religion. I choose to. I was allowed to decide for myself whether or not I follow the religion by parents who were forward thinking and believed the choice was mine to make with no pressure.

You regard male circumcision as mutilation, that's your opinion. I don't know any Jewish boys who feel they have been mutilated. If I ever do, I'll pass on your concerns. And if that's the crusade you're choosing, I'm kind of surprised you haven't found something else to shout about that's more worth the shouting.

I mostly agree with your sentiments, although there is a caveat. You claimed that your parents allowed you to choose whether you followed the religion of your heritage, which is extremely admirable position to take by your folks. However, circumcision of children is most definitely an immoral thing to do.

When those children reach adulthood, then they should get the choice of whether they wish to have some of their penis removed. If they do, then there is no issue.

The children may not feel mutilated because they don't know any different, it happened when they were too young to remember, and a penis is a penis as soon as you notice it.