Originally Posted by jnashicg

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” – Gandhi

Gandhi was a racist.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Gandhi was a racist.

He might have said some racist things, but that was hardly unusual considering the time and circumstances he lived in

Originally Posted by MTVN

He might have said some racist things, but that was hardly unusual considering the time and circumstances he lived in

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

Fair enough, I don't think he should just be idolised uncritically but I don't think he should be simply branded a racist either (not saying you were doing that) and have all of what he achieved disregarded

[mrlecturer]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

Yeyyy

another Google-backed argument. Google also tells me the world will end in 2012, damnit, its the year of my graduation

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

Yeyyy

another Google-backed argument. Google also tells me the world will end in 2012, damnit, its the year of my graduation

I hope that university of yours is free, otherwise I'd ask for my money back. It's not a google-backed argument, it's saying that if people go to google (to look into it) on the back of the point I made, then that is a good thing.

There is a difference, and one which someone at University really should be able to understand.

As this is a quotes thread, how about this one for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

[mrlecturer]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I hope that university of yours is free, otherwise I'd ask for my money back. It's not a google-backed argument, it's saying that if people go to google (to look into it) on the back of the point I made, then that is a good thing.

There is a difference, and one which someone at University really should be able to understand.

As this is a quotes thread, how about this one for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and judgement and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely

I really admire Gandhi Non Violence.

[mrlecturer]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I really admire Gandhi Non Violence.

oh Vanessa,

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

oh Vanessa,

I've seen a movie about him once. It was amazing! Really inspiring.

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely

Well didn't you just get infinitely more interesting.

Firstly, your premise that my comment is based from google is simply false and unfounded. In order for that to be true, I would have to see names on the internet and go to google with the question "is person x a racist?" It makes no sense.

Gandhi was used by many civil rights leaders, most notably, Martin Luther King. I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but I don't need to read many books written about him in this instance, when his own words speak so loudly.

"Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves."

“Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

With any historical figure, there is a debate over intentions/actions etc, but where we have their actual words, I think it's only fair of doing them the courtesy of accepting what they say on face value.

I know you are a Muslim, so I'll tread carefully with my next point, I have an ex-girlfriend (Muslim) whose family were from Pakistan originally, and she used to call me Kaffir as a playful insult. She told me it meant infidel or non believer, and was very much a derogatory term when used in it's original context.

Maybe you can enlighten me on your description of the word Kaffir?

[Vanessa]

I don't think he was.

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I don't think he was.

That's it then. Thread closed.

[Niamh.]

I have to say I'm finding all this very interesting to read, I'd never heard anything about him being racist before

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

That's it then. Thread closed.

Just my opinion.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I have to say I'm finding all this very interesting to read, I'd never heard anything about him being racist before

Me neither!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

Me neither!

Doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't though

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't though

Yes, but it doesn't sound like him.

[arista]

It was Another Time
way back then.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by arista

It was Another Time
way back then.

Exactly. That's true.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

Yes, but it doesn't sound like him.

You mean, it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him in the past.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

You mean, it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him in the past.

Well, i've never heard of it.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

Well, i've never heard of it.

My point. You say it doesn't sound like him, but you really mean it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him.

[mrlecturer]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Well didn't you just get infinitely more interesting.

Gandhi was used by many civil rights leaders, most notably, Martin Luther King. I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but I don't need to read many books written about him in this instance, when his own words speak so loudly.

"Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves."

“Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

With any historical figure, there is a debate over intentions/actions etc, but where we have their actual words, I think it's only fair of doing them the courtesy of accepting what they say on face value.

I know you are a Muslim, so I'll tread carefully with my next point, I have an ex-girlfriend (Muslim) whose family were from Pakistan originally, and she used to call me Kaffir as a playful insult. She told me it meant infidel or non believer, and was very much a derogatory term when used in it's original context.

Maybe you can enlighten me on your description of the word Kaffir?

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India.

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

[Marc]

I knew the guy, massive lad.

Never racist once in his life.