[Livia]

I don't understand why civil partnerships, which are already legal and give gay people the same rights as a married couple, can't just be called a marriage. It's exactly the same as being married in a register office. If a couple love each other and want to marry, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

However... I don't agree with forcing the church to marry gay couples which seems to be uppermost in people's demands. If you're going to force the Christian church to marry gay couples against their belief, you're going to have to force the Catholics, the Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims and every other organised religion to do the same. It seems that people accept that, for instance, the Muslim religion would not allow it, but see no problem with forcing the Christian church to do it. If a gay couple are religious, want to marry in a register office and have a church blessing, then would that not be enough? Many divorced heterosexual couples do this.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Livia

However... I don't agree with forcing the church to marry gay couples which seems to be uppermost in people's demands. If you're going to force the Christian church to marry gay couples against their belief, you're going to have to force the Catholics, the Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims and every other organised religion to do the same. It seems that people accept that, for instance, the Muslim religion would not allow it, but see no problem with forcing the Christian church to do it. If a gay couple are religious, want to marry in a register office and have a church blessing, then would that not be enough? Many divorced heterosexual couples do this.

A good point, but it has to start somewhere. I'll get them bloody muslims

Probably a poor choice of emoticon, really...

[King Gizzard]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't understand why civil partnerships, which are already legal and give gay people the same rights as a married couple, can't just be called a marriage. It's exactly the same as being married in a register office. If a couple love each other and want to marry, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

However... I don't agree with forcing the church to marry gay couples which seems to be uppermost in people's demands. If you're going to force the Christian church to marry gay couples against their belief, you're going to have to force the Catholics, the Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims and every other organised religion to do the same. It seems that people accept that, for instance, the Muslim religion would not allow it, but see no problem with forcing the Christian church to do it. If a gay couple are religious, want to marry in a register office and have a church blessing, then would that not be enough? Many divorced heterosexual couples do this.

Exactly my view point, every word of it

Christianity seems to be a bit of an easy target at times.

and having a wedding at a church who oppose it in the first place - why would you want that? You would constantly be thinking of it..

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Nathan

and having a wedding at a church who oppose it in the first place - why would you want that? You would constantly be thinking of it..

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

Why would you want to be part of a religion that think that being gay is a sin though? I'm not saying that to be nasty btw, I'm saying it because I don't agree with a whole lot of what they believe and I want nothing to do with Catholicism because of it, I don't want to change their views, I just don't want to be part of it. I mean, they don't let divorced people re marry in the church either.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why would you want to be part of a religion that think that being gay is a sin though? I'm not saying that to be nasty btw, I'm saying it because I don't agree with a whole lot of what they believe and I want nothing to do with Catholicism because of it, I don't want to change their views, I just don't want to be part of it. I mean, they don't let divorced people re marry in the church either.

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't think that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself..... etc. etc.

Niall, can I cut in and say something? The parts of the Bible that Christians follow is the New Testament, which is about two thousand years old. Jesus never says outright anywhere in that Testament that he is against homosexuality. Jesus was a Jew, as you know, and what he did say is that he endorses the Law of Moses - from the Old Testament which is more than 5000 years old. The parts you mention from Leviticus - I agree with you totally that they are archaic and ridiculous. I hope that there does come a time when all religions realise that if you love someone and want to marry them, it can never be wrong. Unfortunately, it's taken five thousand years to get to this point, and unfortunately I feel there's a long road still to tread.

I am not a Christian, but I do know that what Jesus did say in the New Testament, many times, is 'love each other'. Maybe if the church concentrated on that rather than a 5000 year old piece of text, everyone would be happier.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Livia

Niall, can I cut in and say something? The parts of the Bible that Christians follow is the New Testament, which is about two thousand years old. Jesus never says outright anywhere in that Testament that he is against homosexuality. Jesus was a Jew, as you know, and what he did say is that he endorses the Law of Moses - from the Old Testament which is more than 5000 years old. The parts you mention from Leviticus - I agree with you totally that they are archaic and ridiculous. I hope that there does come a time when all religions realise that if you love someone and want to marry them, it can never be wrong. Unfortunately, it's taken five thousand years to get to this point, and unfortunately I feel there's a long road still to tread.

I am not a Christian, but I do know that what Jesus did say in the New Testament, many times, is 'love each other'. Maybe if the church concentrated on that rather than a 5000 year old piece of text, everyone would be happier.

Yeah thats what I hope for. It would be wonderful if the various Christian Churches saw the light and changed their tune. I just wish it would happen soon.

I mean its painful for me to see how the Church's views on homoseuxality have caused so many to become intolerant. They could help change things so much. Its sad.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't thing that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

Yeah, see that's the problem I have with organised religions in general, they're out dated and also man made. Religions have had a huge amount of power over people and I think they abused that power to make people do what they want and keep them in line. Personally I don't believe in a God but if there is one I don't see why you need a religion to believe in him properly. Anyway, I guess I'm going a bit off topic with this!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't thing that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

Niall,I have to say what brilliant post, it is one of the most thought provoking posts I have read in the 2+years I have been on here.

One of my thoughts as to organised religion is that particularly Christianity,so called because Christians claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Taking the New Testament which is presented as devoted to his life and teachings, also removing from the New Testament the rather volatile opinions of Paul,who one day tells us to love one another and another is ranting against all sorts of things, I am sure his writings depended on what mood he got up in a morning.What we then find is one simple fact.

In all of the Gospels which are supposedly attributed solely to the life, words and teachings of Jesus, he himself in all those Gospels speaks about many things both new and from the Old Testament too but nowhere,anywhere, does he mention or condemn homosexuality.Not a single word.
It always amazes me that something he himself seems to have not deemed to give any instruction on or condemn whatsoever should be a basis for so much controversy in Christianity by the hierarchy of Christianity too.

Your post Niall is excellent, really well laid out and said.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Niall,I have to say what brilliant post, it is one of the most thought provoking posts I have read in the 2+years I have been on here.

One of my thoughts as to organised religion is that pariculary Christianity,so called because Christians claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Taking the New Testament which is presented as devoted to his life and teachings, also removing from the New Testament the rather volatile opinions of Paul,who one day tells us to love one another and another is ranting against all sorts of things, I am sure his writings depended on what mood he got up in a morning.What we then find is one simple fact.

In all of the Gospels which are supposedly attributed solely to the life, words and teachings of Jesus, he himself in all those Gospels speaks about many things both new and from the Old Testament too but nowhere,anywhere, does he mention or condemn homosexuality.Not a single word.
It always amazes me that something he himself seems to have not deemed to give any instruction on or condemn whatsoever should be a basis for so much controversy in Christianity by the hierarchy of Christianity too.

Your post Niall is excellent, really well laid out and said.

Exactly. You see, this is why I don't do religion, particularly not Christianity. A load of cack with rules and regulations that basically stops me from having a life.

I just find it funny that the Church is supposed to be a welcoming place, yet it said that homosexuality is a criminal offense and the person found in a relationship should be stoned to death, which totally contradicts one of its ten commandments, 'do not murder'.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niall

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

If they really are Christian then they will accept the doctrine and understand that they cannot marry in church.

I've been to a wedding in the last couple of years where both of the (heterosexual) people being married were divorced and the church would not marry them. They had a register office wedding and were then blessed in the church. They didn't kick up a fuss and want the rules changed, because they are Christians and they accepted it.