[Livia]

Originally Posted by LemonJam

I don't believe in an afterlife of any form quite honestly. It's a lovely thought but I think it's essentially an emotional crutch for those who fear death.

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...oh LOL ok, I wasn't expecting that...I can't really say..go ahead and die then..see what it's like...haha..you got me there...do you know what to do if you have a little piece of wrapping paper and you haven't got a gift small enough to fit in it..?..I don't want to throw it away, it might come in useful for something..such a waste....?....and then do I have to cut off a whole big bit, just to wrap up this small thing which is too big for the smaller bit...?....

..Niamh...help....please...don't die on me, I need you....

Simple, buy something to fit it

[AnnieK]

This is such a personal issue and one that is very hard to debate as I think by adult age you have formed a view on this and as it is never likely to be proved one way or another it's just a personal take on it. Personally I believe in reincarnation but if you don't then that's fine.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

..but also..with a body, for me it's just an empty vessel..and for whatever reason it can't continue, then it's quite straight forward and easy to understand..perhaps it's old and tired..but with a spirit..the essence of a person..the real person they are..that can be bright and healthy up to the last breath...I don't believe it just disappears..I have no idea exactly what happens and I don't think I believe in reincarnation or 'ghosts'..but I do believe it is still there...somewhere....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

Yeah, I've heard about you guys with big kites. Takes a lot more tugging to get it up.

Nice body-swerve on the issue though Jesus, you git.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

Simple, buy something to fit it

..this is why you have to live forever Niamh...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..this is why you have to live forever Niamh...

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, I've heard about you guys with big kites. Takes a lot more tugging to get it up.

Nice body-swerve on the issue though Jesus, you git.

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Mrs Claus

This is such a personal issue and one that is very hard to debate as I think by adult age you have formed a view on this and as it is never likely to be proved one way or another it's just a personal take on it. Personally I believe in reincarnation but if you don't then that's fine.

...I don't think I thought about it at all when I was youger Annie..from that point, I can see what LJ is saying...I've only ever thought a lot about it since adulthood and losing more people I've been close to....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

..you don't have to have evidence for everything though JHC...not when it comes to spiritual and emotional things...for instance something can touch someone quite deeply and reduce them to tears..they may feel very emotional about some small little thing that no one else does..there's no evidence for that..it's not something that can be explained..it just is...and it's as real as anything else...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

Makes a note... *uncut*.

Agreeing to differ. I like that. And it's kind of new for you....................

Originally Posted by Livia

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

The Greek philosopher, Epicurus.

"Death is nothing to me because I'll never experience it. When I'm dead, I won't know or care that I'm dead. I desire happiness and I fear pain, since neither exists in death, death is of neutral value and not something to be desired or feared."

That sums it up quite nicely.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

The Greek philosopher, Epicurus.

"Death is nothing to me because I'll never experience it. When I'm dead, I won't know or care that I'm dead. I desire happiness and I fear pain, since neither exists in death, death is of neutral value and not something to be desired or feared."

That sums it up quite nicely.

I agree with that but for me it's more a fear of losing people I love by dying and those great connections.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing .

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you don't have to have evidence for everything though JHC...not when it comes to spiritual and emotional things...for instance something can touch someone quite deeply and reduce them to tears..they may feel very emotional about some small little thing that no one else does..there's no evidence for that..it's not something that can be explained..it just is...and it's as real as anything else...

Do you mean in terms of being moved by a piece of music, or a painting? Along those lines?

I agree we can't explain everything, but then that works 2 ways, and to leap from "I can't explain it, therefore it's something supernatural", is not something I'm capable of doing.

But if you want to, then that's great for you, and if that helps (and **** knows we all need help), then I would never begrudge you that. I'd only ever try to get you to see another way.

Originally Posted by Livia

Makes a note... *uncut*.

Agreeing to differ. I like that. And it's kind of new for you....................

I reckon it adds at least a millimeter of girth. Just, y'know, throwing that out there.

What can I say? I'm a changed man.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Blitzeen

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing .

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

..I think for me Zee, it's not so much about good/bad..heaven/hell..I don't believe in heaven and hell..and I agree that a 'good' person is a person with a good balance..as not many people are purely good or bad...it's more about what makes the person..like you with your curiosity..and other parts of your personality that go to make Zee...the outside Zee..the body..is just a vessel..for me, you could transfer your personality to anyone and it would still be you..a you that looks different, but that's all....

..I don't believe that part of us ever dies..I don't know what happens to it though....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Do you mean in terms of being moved by a piece of music, or a painting? Along those lines?

I agree we can't explain everything, but then that works 2 ways, and to leap from "I can't explain it, therefore it's something supernatural", is not something I'm capable of doing.

But if you want to, then that's great for you, and if that helps (and **** knows we all need help), then I would never begrudge you that. I'd only ever try to get you to see another way.

.it could be anything..it could be virtually nothing..just something you personally find emotional..I could give examples but it wouldn't matter..people find different things emotional...the point is, it can't be explained...not everything can be explained...and I do see it you way..honestly, I do...but that's the thing..what you say makes total sense, so my sense tells me I should accept it..and yet I don't...unexplainable...

..I don't follow a religion either..and I don't believe in ghosts/supernatural spirits etc...

Originally Posted by Ammi

.it could be anything..it could be virtually nothing..just something you personally find emotional..I could give examples but it wouldn't matter..people find different things emotional...the point is, it can't be explained...not everything can be explained...and I do see it you way..honestly, I do...but that's the thing..what you say makes total sense, so my sense tells me I should accept it..and yet I don't...unexplainable...

..I don't follow a religion either..and I don't believe in ghosts/supernatural spirits etc...

You woman - me man.

Makes perfect sense.

[Ammi]

..LOL..ok..end the thread...I'm glad we got that one straightened out...

[Kizzy]

I feel as kazanne that we journey through life the goals are to feed our souls, to enrich them. That we have to achieve a certain level of knowledge not academic but spiritual.
In a way religion hinders that path as we are told what to do, and what is right and wrong.
This stops us using our own instinct and intuition to guide us, thus affecting our free will.
The one strange thing is if we are decended from beasts when did the conscience evolve?
Animals are driven by base instinct, so when did we get to choose what we do against ours?

[LemonJam]

Originally Posted by Livia

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

True :P what I mean to say is that I think people who do believe in an afterlife of some sort take comfort in that, because they may not like the idea of life just ending with nothing else afterwards. So I'll reword myself, I think that the idea of an afterlife is a much nicer alternative than just nothingness and it puts people more at ease with the idea of passing on.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by LemonJam

True :P what I mean to say is that I think people who do believe in an afterlife of some sort take comfort in that, because they may not like the idea of life just ending with nothing else afterwards. So I'll reword myself, I think that the idea of an afterlife is a much nicer alternative than just nothingness and it puts people more at ease with the idea of passing on.

..I believe that people do 'pass on' LJ..but there is something that isn't tangible...and maybe that something is just what's in people's hearts..minds, memories etc..I don't know...but we're all more that just a physical body..and I can only 'see' that part that passes on....

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

I feel as kazanne that we journey through life the goals are to feed our souls, to enrich them. That we have to achieve a certain level of knowledge not academic but spiritual.
In a way religion hinders that path as we are told what to do, and what is right and wrong.
This stops us using our own and intuition to guide us, thus affecting our free will.
The one strange thing is if we are decended from beasts when did the conscience evolve?
Animals are driven by base instinct, so when did we get to choose what we do against ours?

It's one of the big breakthroughs in evolution.

To start, we walked upright which freed up our hands
We evolved opposable thumbs, which allowed us to manipulate our environment and create tools and weapons.

The fact we were both hunting and cooking meat, increased the sizes of our brains massively.

Conscience is more than likely a by product of basic empathy that the great apes all exhibit, but the brain is so complex, that we're only scratching the surface.