[Withano]

Originally Posted by Shaun

What's stopping a 50 year old sexual predator is the law. That's like saying "but what if a male drug dealer uses the girls toilets to deal drugs?"

uh... he'd get caught?

this kid most likely wants a poo.

If a man dressed as a woman entered the womens bathroom, how would anybody know if hes a pervert or if he feels that he is woman in a mans body, theres no way to tell really.. I'd say post-op is the only exception.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ben

You got it. I don't care if that makes me ignorant. For example, why should I be made to feel uncomfortable in a toilet because somebody else is uncomfortable in another? How is that fair?

Why the **** would you feel uncomfortable about using a toilet with a woman who identifies as a man when (hang on I need to break this down cause this is quite complex)

A) Let's say they're straight, so are attracted to women...you aren't included in that
B) Let's say they're gay, so are attracted to men...you are gay, but does that mean you're uncomfortable around other men in the toilet with you when some of them might be gay too? Because this person's transgender does that automatically mean they're going to be more likely to come onto you or something?

And if that's not the reason you'd feel uncomfortable then I don't know what else would...why would you care about someone else having a piss in the same room as you when you're doing it with a bunch of other people anyway? Does it matter what gender someone is? You're all there to do one thing and one thing only...go to the toilet...

Why should a woman who feels she was born into the wrong body and identifies as a male and has lived their life struggling to come to terms with that be forced into going into a room that's made for the gender he doesn't identify with all just so that you can piss in peace? I mean really? And I'm talking about transgender people in general here not this 6 year old

And on the subject of gender segregated toilets as people are bringing that up, the whole notion of it is ludicrous, it's a complete social construct (as is gender) and so why should we split people up into where people piss and sh*t? It's just dumb.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally Posted by Shaun

eh, who knows. It's pretty ignorant to just say outright that 6 year olds don't know what they want to be, or how they want to be treated. It's not like it's a discipline issue. It might just be a phase, and a harmless one.

I said I wanted to be a doctor at that age amongst other things. I didn't really. So for saying a 6 year old doesn't truly know their own mind people are branded as ignorant?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Why the **** would you feel uncomfortable about using a toilet with a woman who identifies as a man when (hang on I need to break this down cause this is quite complex)

A) Let's say they're straight, so are attracted to women...you aren't included in that
B) Let's say they're gay, so are attracted to men...you are gay, but does that mean you're uncomfortable around other men in the toilet with you when some of them might be gay too? Because this person's transgender does that automatically mean they're going to be more likely to come onto you or something?

And if that's not the reason you'd feel uncomfortable then I don't know what else would...why would you care about someone else having a piss in the same room as you when you're doing it with a bunch of other people anyway? Does it matter what gender someone is? You're all there to do one thing and one thing only...go to the toilet...

Why should a woman who feels she was born into the wrong body and identifies as a male and has lived their life struggling to come to terms with that be forced into going into a room that's made for the gender he doesn't identify with all just so that you can piss in peace? I mean really? And I'm talking about transgender people in general here not this 6 year old

And on the subject of gender segregated toilets as people are bringing that up, the whole notion of it is ludicrous, it's a complete social construct (as is gender) and so why should we split people up into where people piss and sh*t? It's just dumb.

I'm not saying I do, I just used myself as an example.

But on the flip side, again, another example, why should a man who identifies as a woman be allowed to use the female toilets if it makes the other women feel uncomfortable? How is that fair on them?

It works two ways, Jack.


And to answer your question why does it matter. Because that is how we have been brought up. Your whole insight is that people should change their views, but not everyone can just switch their views at the drop of a hat, especially ones that until recently have been considered the norm by society.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by BigBrother3232

If a man dressed as a woman entered the womens bathroom, how would anybody know if hes a pervert or if he feels that he is woman in a mans body, theres no way to tell really.. I'd say post-op is the only exception.

How do you know if anyone in the toilet with you is a pervert or not? So to be a pervert you dress up in silly hats and fancy dress, is that right? The same way that terrorists have long beards and turbans? You know, that old stereotype. Anyone could be a pervert. Shall we just scrap public toilets because we need to protect ourselves from all these potential perverts? You can't live your life like that. If someone's going to come onto you in a toilet, they're going to come onto you in a toilet. That's the bottom line of it - no dress or different room is going to change that.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ben

I'm not saying I do, I just used myself as an example.

But on the flip side, again, another example, why should a man who identifies as a woman be allowed to use the female toilets if it makes the other women feel uncomfortable? How is that fair on them?

It works two ways, Jack.


And to answer your question why does it matter. Because that is how we have been brought up. Your whole insight is that people should change their views, but not everyone can just switch their views at the drop of a hat, especially ones that until recently have been considered the norm by society.

Because all of what I've just said to you is what I'd say to anyone else that felt uncomfortable pissing in the same room as someone of the opposite sex. If that is seriously the reason they're uncomfortable, just because they're not the same sex, and not because they feel they'd be attacked (which in itself is stupid as well) then as far as I'm concerned they can go piss outside. If I had it my way segrated toilets wouldn't exist but they sadly do, and so I don't feel it's right to outcast transgender people further by saying they can't go in the toilet of the gender that they feel they are.

And I know that's how we've been brought up, but it's all just a social construct, and these social constructs should always be questioned. Who made these rules? Why do they exist? Do they need to exist? Just because we've been taught that and socialised into thinking that it doesn't make it right, in fact it makes it anything but.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Jack_

How do you know if anyone in the toilet with you is a pervert or not? So to be a pervert you dress up in silly hats and fancy dress, is that right? The same way that terrorists have long beards and turbans? You know, that old stereotype. Anyone could be a pervert. Shall we just scrap public toilets because we need to protect ourselves from all these potential perverts? You can't live your life like that. If someone's going to come onto you in a toilet, they're going to come onto you in a toilet. That's the bottom line of it - no dress or different room is going to change that.

Alright, I'm just saying, perhaps one of the reasons many restaurants and bars might stop cross dressers from using the wrong bathroom might be for peoples safety. Stopping all men from using the womens bathroom is obviously ultimately more safe for everybody.
And in this thread inparticular, there is absolutely no reason for children to use the wrong bathroom. They are sexless until puberty.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Because all of what I've just said to you is what I'd say to anyone else that felt uncomfortable pissing in the same room as someone of the opposite sex. If that is seriously the reason they're uncomfortable, just because they're not the same sex, and not because they feel they'd be attacked (which in itself is stupid as well) then as far as I'm concerned they can go piss outside. If I had it my way segrated toilets wouldn't exist but they sadly do, and so I don't feel it's right to outcast transgender people further by saying they can't go in the toilet of the gender that they feel they are.

And I know that's how we've been brought up, but it's all just a social construct, and these social constructs should always be questioned. Who made these rules? Why do they exist? Do they need to exist? Just because we've been taught that and socialised into thinking that it doesn't make it right, in fact it makes it anything but.

Okay, Jack. Go ask your granmother how she would feel about a man using the same public toilet as her. And if she felt like that, you'd honestly tell her that she can just "go piss outside"?

[Omah]

Segregation is INCREASING, not DECREASING .....

Safety and privacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_seg...ty_and_privacy

Some sex segregation occurs for reasons of safety and privacy. Worldwide, laws often mandate sex segregation in bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, and similar spaces, based on a common perceived need for privacy. This type of segregation policy can protect against sexual harassment and sexual abuse. To combat groping, street harassment, and eve teasing of women in crowded public places, some countries have also designated women only spaces. For example, sex-segregated buses, women-only passenger cars, and compartments on trains have been introduced in Mexico, Japan, Russia, and other countries to reduce sexual harassment.

Some places in Germany, Korea, and China all have women's parking spaces, often for related safety issues. Many more countries, including Canada, the United States, Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom also grant parking privileges to pregnant women, for safety or access reasons.

Sex segregation rooted in safety considerations can furthermore extend beyond the physical to the psychological and emotional as well. A refuge for battered mothers or wives may refuse to admit men, even those who are themselves the victims of domestic violence, both to exclude those who might commit or threaten violence to women and because women who have been subjected to abuse by a male might feel threatened by the presence of any man. Women’s health clinics and women’s resource centers, whether in Africa or North America, are further examples of spaces where sex segregation may facilitate private and highly personal decisions. Women-only banks may be similarly intended to provide autonomy to women’s decision making.

[Ninastar]

As a woman, if I saw what I thought was a man in a female toilet, I'd be uncomfortable/worried. I can't see many women being okay with it.

[Jake.]

I don't agree with the child using the other toilet at his age. What makes the parents so sure of anything, at that age anyway? Obviously we don't know how the mind works and we don't know what the kid is feeling or thinking, but I feel that it is far too young.

[Jake.]

Not only that, why would the child find it comfortable using the female toilet at that age? Why would a 6 year old know the difference?

[Jessica.]

I think she should be allowed to use whatever toilets she feels comfortable going to, what is the big deal? Especially since she is transgender, that's a part of her body she wouldn't be putting on display, I have never seen another person leave the toilet with their pants down, that's one of the things kids learn as soon as they are potty trained, to pull their pants up, I don't see what the problem is.

In regards to adults, I don't like peeing in the same room as ANYBODY so it wouldn't make a difference who else was in there, a lot of homes only have one bathroom, does that mean it should be for one specific gender too?

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Mrluvaluva

I said I wanted to be a doctor at that age amongst other things. I didn't really. So for saying a 6 year old doesn't truly know their own mind people are branded as ignorant?

I said it was ignorant to totally write off the idea that a six year old is capable of self-determination (at least when it comes to gender)

[GypsyGoth]

I don't see why an effeminate boy can't use the boys toilets.

[Roy Mars III]

I do think six is too young to truly determinate something like that, but I don't really see a problem with her being allowed to use the girl's bathroom at that age if she wants. She obviously expressed that she feels uncomfortable using the boy's one so I see no reason to not let her use the toilet she feels most comfortable with.

The male/female toilet separation needs to stay though. I will be damned if they go to unisex bathrooms and get rid of urinals. I would install a urinal in my house if I could.

[MTVN]

Agree with those who think six is too young tbh, it's a very complicated issue and even if you ask most transgenders they would probably say it took them years to fully comprehend and get to grips with who they are, it's something that needs quite a lot of maturity imo

Regarding the toilet issue in general I think they should stay gender separate, though maybe they could have some gender neutral ones in some major places as an alternative (rather than a replacement)

[Jack_]

Why gender is a social construct and so why as such segregated toilets aren't necessary (it's even mentioned in this):

How the Gender Binary impacts those who don't fit the mold

Have you ever been stared at? Laughed at? Ridiculed and humiliated incessantly? Wondered if you were a man or a woman? Or both? Or neither? Have you ever not fit the mold that society wanted you to? Have you ever felt different and unaccepted for reasons beyond your control? If you answered yes to any of these questions, a significant part of the reason is our socially constructed binary gender system. If you have always fit the mold and never really questioned the essence of gender and sexual orientation, then this article is especially pertinent to you. The trials and tribulations suffered by the transgendered mostly go unnoticed and this needs to change, for the benefit of those being mistreated and misunderstood; at the expense of society as a whole. The restrictive and exclusive nature of the binary system complicates a transgendered person’s ability to self-identify and consequently complicates the relationship between gender and sexual orientation.

In order to fully comprehend the struggles of being transgendered, one must first define what it means to be transgendered and its relationship to gender and sexual orientation. According to dictionary.com, transgender is defined as “a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.” This definition is not accurate as it falls within the seemingly inevitable realms of the binary view of “opposite sexes”. This is simply unacceptable. The social construction of gender has resulted in stereotypes so embedded in society that most of us don't realize it, not because we don't want to, but more due to lack of exposure and awareness. There are male restrooms and female restrooms. There are no special restrooms for transgenders but this does not seem odd to most people. According to Riki Wilchins, an activist who focused her work primarily on issues of gender, explains the culturally embedded stereotypes of Man and Woman. She claims: “ Man is the universal. Woman is defined by her opposition to Man, by what she does not have, the Penis, and the one thing she has that Man does not, reproduction and sexuality.”(p57) But what do Man and Woman have to do with gender? And in turn, how does gender affect sexuality? In the case of transgenders, this is an especially difficult issue to resolve. In order to attempt to answer these questions, specific case studies will be examined and analyzed.

Mollie Biewald was a brave and daring individual. At the tender age of 15, she wrote about growing up both confused and confident. She recalls being in seventh grade, “when three or four times a day I'm asked whether I'm a boy or a girl, and when I answer they laugh at me.” (p 121) Furthermore, her teachers (people who are supposed to be respectable, tolerant, role models), referred to her with male pronouns for weeks, even when one day she was brave enough to wear a skirt to school. At 12 years old, the binary system seriously complicated Mollie's ability to self identify. Genetically, Mollie has all the biological characteristics of a female. But does her biological structure define her gender or her sexuality? On the surface, one would probably just assume Mollie is a butch dyke or just simply a lesbian. But this is not the case. Mollie is sexually attracted to girls but she personally feels like a male. Does that make her straight? It's hard to define sexual orientation when it is so difficult to identify as either just male or female and labels prove to be inaccurate.

What people need to understand is that there are separate male and female biological organs, but these biological components alone do not encompass gender. Unlike transsexuals who choose to have surgery to alter their perceived “gender”, many transgenders do not want surgery. Perhaps this is because we are born the way we are, and cosmetically changing yourself does not truly change the person on the inside thus making it somewhat of a superficial procedure. Some transsexuals would completely disagree because surgery finalizes the transition. But what if some people don't want a transition? Why is it so important to fit a societal mold? And more importantly, when are people going to realize that we are all PEOPLE, and we should not be restricted to being defined as a label. We should not be judged by our “gender” or sexual preferences, but by our actions.

It is evident that the binary system complicates a transgendered person's ability to self-identify because a system with only two genders is a like a huge spectrum with Man on one end and Woman on the other. But what about the gray area, all that space inside the spectrum that is tossed out because society constructed it that way. This brings us to our next case study, Ethan Zimmerman, a self proclaimed bi national, multigendered transsfag attracted to boys of both sexes. Ethan was born with a female anatomy and is attracted to men. People would ask Ethan why 'she' wasn't straight since 'she' liked men. Ethan was an attractive female, even a model, so people had a really hard time understanding why she would want to have surgery (only chest surgery at the time). In his own words, Ethan would contemplate, “ What will my mother think? Was I born this way? How come I never liked being a lesbian and love sucking dick so much? Do I deserve to be here? Why are people so afraid of me? Sometimes I wish I was dead. Is it freaky in this body or what? I like being fucked in the cunt, so I must not be a real transsexual. If I had a real dick I'd be happy. If I had a real dick, I'd be a fag who is sometimes sad.” (pp191-192) Those are overwhelming thoughts to deal with on a regular basis but this case just illustrates how difficult it is to distinguish the relationship between gender and sexuality. How would the binary system react to Ethan's case. Quite frankly, it can't. No matter what label it uses, it would be inaccurate.

The final case study is Mr. Barb Greve. Born with a female anatomy, Barb always identified as a male, as early as he can remember. Although he surrounded himself with all types of women, mostly lesbian and feminist, he realized the only thing he really had in common with them was the sexual attraction towards women. He sums up gender nicely, “ I've learned that gender is not as simple as biological sex (which can be altered); nor can we simplify and limit gender's definition to social constructs. I believe gender to be a combination between biology and social roles. We all choose to express our gender in different ways. For some people, this means limiting how they are in the world; for others, it means challenging stereotypes.” (p249) Barb struggled with gender and self-identity for years, just wanting to fit a stereotype, a demon induced by the binary system. There is clearly a distinction between gender expression and gender identity. Barb unsuccessfully tried to fit the mold of either male or female. This is what is most detrimental about the binary system in society. The need to make gender one or the other sacrifices and suppresses life experiences of people like Barb. Barb concludes that being forced to choose either male or female, “would mean denying a large part of who I am. My journey is not about transitioning into one of the two acceptable genders. It is not a political statement. It is about becoming a whole person. It is about being the best person I can be: a transgendered guy named Barb.” (p249) These are exceptionally brave words.

In a society devoid of more than two 'accepted' genders, it is time we realize the futility of such an oppressive system. First there was the gay community, then the lesbian and gay community, and then the lesbian, gay, and bi community finally resulting in the lesbian, gay, bi, and transgender community (LGBT). Gay, lesbian, and bisexuality all focus on sexuality and much less so on gender identity and gender expression. The LGB are all comparatively easy terms to classify but the T is the more difficult part. In the binary system, being gay or lesbian works because it fits the mold of male and female gender. Even bisexuality somehow fits the mold because gender is not taken into account, solely the fact that a person is attracted to both sexes. It is time to refute all the gender stereotypes and accept and embrace that there is much more to gender than just male or female. Until we do, brave and confused people will continually be denigrated by a hierarchical society with such skewed norms. What is normal? Or natural? Only what society decides and dictates. Thus there is still hope. I am a straight male, but I like fashion, emotions, and passions, characteristics typically associated with the female mold. Does that make me transgendered? No. It makes me a human. The one intrinsic value we all share. We are who we are, and we should not have to put ourselves down or live in fear and confusion. Clearly gender itself is a restrictive term and it clearly not mutually exclusive to sexual orientation. We are people attracted to other people. I think it's fair to say we all want to love and to be loved. The way to break the binary system is to be open minded. The seemingly less apparent and most important part of the binary system is its affect on people who define themselves as straight males and females, who 'fit' the mold. The problem with this is fear. Once you fit the mold, why detour away from it? So what if a super athletic football player likes to cross dress? Or if a woman uses a strap on to pretend she has a penis? The dichotomy between male and female is so restricting, it polarizes distinct attributes typically associated with either male or female, which over time, has created stereotypes deeply engrained into society. If anything, the transgendered community should work as an eye opener to all those who have never really questioned gender or sexual orientation. How many straight people ask themselves why they are straight and not gay? Not many. But by being true to yourself and not fitting the mold, you are not restricting yourself to such a flawed binary system. Society constructed this system, with the right work, awareness, and exposure, society can just as easily deconstruct a hierarchical system that encourages stereotypes and suppressed the beauty of uniqueness and individuality.

http://genderbinary.wikidot.com/gend...y-outside-mold

[MTVN]

I don't really see gender roles as that oppressive, it's something that will always exist because there are very real and legitimate differences between the sexes, and tbh all behaviour and norms are kind of dictated by the culture and time in which you're born. People are no longer expected to live up to extreme gender stereotypes these days though, there's a lot of scope for nonconformism and a lot of overlap across the two genders.

Segregated toilets aren't merely there as a tool of gender oppression either, they do have a very obvious practical basis

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't really see gender roles as that oppressive, it's something that will always exist because there are very real and legitimate differences between the sexes, and tbh all behaviour and norms are kind of dictated by the culture and time in which you're born. People are no longer expected to live up to extreme gender stereotypes these days though, there's a lot of scope for nonconformism and a lot of overlap across the two genders.

Segregated toilets aren't merely there as a tool of gender oppression either, they do have a very obvious practical basis

[Shaun]

I think we should all just use the disabled toilets since they're gender-neutral and roomy.

[AnnieK]

I think gender specific bathrooms are required for a number of reasons.
The main reason being men's bathrooms smell awful, why should we women be subjected to that? LOL

Six is very young to have decided on transgender issues. Once puberty hits I can understand it a little more, I wanted to be a boy when I was around that age as I had an older brother who I idolised but I didn't grow up transgender. If this child ultimately continues on this path, concessions should be made but the feelings of all pupils should be considered, not just one.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by anniek76

Six is very young to have decided on transgender issues. Once puberty hits I can understand it a little more, I wanted to be a boy when I was around that age as I had an older brother who I idolised but I didn't grow up transgender. If this child ultimately continues on this path, concessions should be made but the feelings of all pupils should be considered, not just one.

BIB - Good point about growing up .....

[Patrick]

What a ******ing deluded bint.

[Nedusa]

Why is this child labelled as transgender ? This child is a boy has male genitals so should be regarded as MALE. He should use the boys toilet along with the other boys. All talk of gender awareness or gender re-alignment is totally inappropriate in relation to a six year old child.

Quite frankly I'm shocked the parents of this child are trying to decide his sexuality when nature has already made that choice. Maybe there is more to this story than has been reported but on the face of it, it looks like a gross subversion of this little boy's right to a normal upbringing.