[user104658]

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

Agreed and they did it for years BEFORE AND AFTER THIS TRAGEDY
SO DID THEIR FRIENDS

So what do you do when youre guilty of neglect? you go on the attack, you don't help detectives, you go straight to the Pope and david beckham. great diversory tactics all moving us farther from THE TRUTH

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by the truth

Agreed and they did it for years BEFORE AND AFTER THIS TRAGEDY
SO DID THEIR FRIENDS

So what do you do when youre guilty of neglect? you go on the attack, you don't help detectives, you go straight to the Pope and david beckham. great diversory tactics all moving us farther from THE TRUTH

How do you know that they did it for YEARS before and after

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Agreed.




How do you know that they did it for YEARS before and after

They admitted it i think.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

They admitted it i think.

After as well I seriously doubt they have done it since unless they are totally insane.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Cherie

After as well I seriously doubt they have done it since unless they are totally insane.

They just seem really careless to me.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

I think perhaps this is the best post that will come out of this thread. They are still guilty of neglecting their children in favour of acting like a couple without children on holiday with them. They should have just left the kids at home with someone in the family if they were so keen to get away to exercise, wine and dine in the sun.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

They just seem really careless to me.

UNCARING describes them better.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by fingers

UNCARING describes them better.

I feel sorry for the twins. I hope they take better care of them.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I feel sorry for the twins. I hope they take better care of them.

I think they do... regardless of whether they accidentally killed her and covered it up or whether she was abducted, they'd be careful not to make the same mistakes again that led to the situation on that fateful night. No leaving the kids unattended, no giving them sedatives, no going out to get drunk while the kids are asleep... their lives have been put on hold anyway.

[thesheriff443]

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

They admitted it's not the first time they did it. It wasn't an isolated incident.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

That's pretty unfair, I think everyone was appalled at that case, the only reason this case is talked about more on here is because it's still somewhat of a mystery and unsolved, it's on going, the baby P case is not.

And to say leaving 3 babies alone in an unlocked apartment is simply a parent letting there guard done is a bit of a stretch imo, what it is is extremely irresponsible especially after your 3 year old told you they woke up crying and scared because they didn't know where you were in the middle of the night.

[chuff me dizzy]

If you were innocent why would refuse to answer 48 out of 49 police questions ? You simply would"nt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

If you were innocent why would refuse to answer 48 out of 49 police questions ? You simply would"nt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm

Didn't she refuse to answer these questions after she had become an arguido?

If she'd refused to answer them immediately, then the police wouldn't have had any information at all to go on.

[MTVN]

Probably advised to by her lawyer

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Probably advised to by her lawyer

Gerry answered his ,so no thats not it ,If i knew that I was a suspect in a case and I knew I had nopthing to hide I wouldnt dream of hindering police,I still cannot understand why ,before Ł6m of taxpayers money was handed over, they were not made to take the lie detector test ,when papers have a comments part on their web pages you can see that the VAST majority of people do not believe them ,in one group Im in we have had 4000 new members since Crimewatch ,thats a lot of people

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Gerry answered his ,so no thats not it ,If i knew that I was a suspect in a case and I knew I had nopthing to hide I wouldnt dream of hindering police,I still cannot understand why ,before Ł6m of taxpayers money was handed over, they were not made to take the lie detector test ,when papers have a comments part on their web pages you can see that the VAST majority of people do not believe them ,in one group Im in we have had 4000 new members since Crimewatch ,thats a lot of people

Jury by newspaper comments. Whatever next? Lets do away with all forms evidence and go by gut instinct.

So a grieving mother of an abducted child didn't react well to becoming a suspect. How thoroughly human of her. I genuinely hope you never have the internet pouring over your every twitch of the lip, or hand gesture under such terrible circumstances.

Even if your group, that trolls parents of a missing girl increased to 70million, it still doesn't prove anything, because this would have been nigh on impossible to pull off and leave no concrete evidence behind.

[Kizzy]

Many have attacked the couple for their behaviour before the incident, why is it so unusual to question it after?...

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Jury by newspaper comments. Whatever next? Lets do away with all forms evidence and go by gut instinct.

So a grieving mother of an abducted child didn't react well to becoming a suspect. How thoroughly human of her. I genuinely hope you never have the internet pouring over your every twitch of the lip, or hand gesture under such terrible circumstances.

Even if your group, that trolls parents of a missing girl increased to 70million, it still doesn't prove anything, because this would have been nigh on impossible to pull off and leave no concrete evidence behind.

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

Originally Posted by Josy

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

I was replying to the point Chuff made about how her group is swelling and newspaper comments are more important.

We are all innocent until proven guilty, and there isn't any evidence of murder/accidental death cover up either, so in this context they should be viewed as innocent. They are guilty of terrible parenting to leave them alone like that. I think my first post in this thread made that very point.

I've read the points made by posters in outside internet groups, and I can't describe it in any other way but trolling. People having doubts about a case is one thing, but I wasn't addressing the trolling remark in that direction.

I follow the evidence or the lack of, and if there isn't a case that's been made against them, then that is a lack of evidence.

If new evidence turns up that points to their guilt, I'd have no problem saying I was wrong all along.

[Niamh.]

Still reading through some of these sites atm, the whole thing about the shutter is a bit of a mystery aswell, it doesn't make any sense in an abduction scenario at all

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Still reading through some of these sites atm, the whole thing about the shutter is a bit of a mystery aswell, it doesn't make any sense in an abduction scenario at all

What thing was that?

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Josy

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

F.B.I trusted police dogs with 100% record found blood, cadaver samples in several places including Kates clothes

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

What thing was that?

The shortened version is basically, the McCanns originally claimed all windows and doors were locked when they went out and at 10pm what alerted Kate to a problem was the bedroom door slamming shut because of the bedroom window being open because of that she then realised Maddie was not in her bed, this open window is apparently the reason kate immediately thought Maddie had been taken by someone. They told friends immediately after that the abductor must have "jemmied" the shutters on the window. But after the cops examined the room, they concluded that the window had not been tampered with and showed no signs of being opened from the outside. The McCanns then changed their story to being that they'd left the patio door open but that doesn't explain the window

Spoiler:

What was locked and what was open? Was there an 'abductor'?

To answer these questions, we need first to look at what was said by the McCanns to family and friends in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.

Jon Corner, as quoted above, clearly states that Kate had told him that they had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal. In other words both doors, front and patio, were locked.

Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call late that same night from Gerry and she recounted: "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing... They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister said on 04 May: "Some people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every half hour."

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

The clear implication in Jill Renwick's statement is that she couldn't have gone out on her own because the front door and patio doors were locked. Otherwise Madeleine, as an active 4 yr-old, could surely have got out through 'open' patio doors very easily and on her own. She was clearly too small to attempt a climbed escape through a closed and shuttered window.

However, police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the investigation, confided in British former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby that neither the windows nor their shutters had been tampered with.

What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else. These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.

But this begs the question: How did the abductor get into the apartment if the patio doors were locked and the shutters, as attending officers quickly assessed, had not been forced from the outside?

There now appear to be two problems with the recounted version of events. How did the abductor get in and why was the window open? And it's at that point the story changes, in a crucial way.

It is suddenly revealed that the patio doors to the rear of the apartment were left unlocked. This immediately resolves the problem of how the 'abductor' entered the apartment but it makes the decision to leave their three babies alone, inside an exposed and unlocked apartment, seem almost unbelievable, not to mention grossly negligent.

So, to further justify and soften the decision to leave the doors unlocked, it is 'revealed' that the McCanns and all their friends on the holiday left their patio doors open throughout the evenings for fear of fire.

They also embark on a series of interviews where they repeatedly assert that they are responsible parents and that their decision to leave the children alone was quite normal behaviour. Gerry goes so far as to describe it as no different to leaving them in the house when you go into the garden.

The second problem that now faces the McCanns is that they have committed themselves to an 'open window and shutter' story. Indeed, it is quoted as the very reason Kate knew something was wrong because when she says she opened the patio doors at 10.00pm, the bedroom door slammed shut as a result of the wind running though the apartment.

So, if the abductor clearly didn't enter through the bedroom window, why was it open? The McCanns hadn't opened it, so there could be only one reason. The 'abductor' must have used it to escape from.

It is also vaguely claimed that the front door has curious locks and can only be opened with a key, further strengthening the bizarre decision of the 'abductor' to escape through a window, carrying a child who would surely have woken up.

But why, with access to a front door and an apparently unlocked patio door, would the 'abductor' complicate things, and heighten the risk of detection, by clambering through a window with a heavy metal shutter?

This idea of a complicated 'key-only exit' front door can surely be discounted, as no apartment would be granted a fire certificate if you could only escape through the front door if you had the key. Mark Warner would surely not install doors that could leave them culpable in the event of a fire.

So, we now have the McCanns' insistance that the 'abductor', or 'predator' as he is now referred, was laying in wait, and entered through the open patio doors between checks on the children.

So what can we make of the way the story changed so quickly?

There is only one conclusion to be drawn.

If the patio doors were locked, as Kate and Gerry independently told Brian Healy, Jon Corner, Trish Cameron, Philomena McCann and Jill Renwick, and the window shutters had clearly not been 'jemmied', then there can have been no way into the apartment that evening. And therefore, by deduction, no abductor.

And that, is a very disturbing conclusion.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html