[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doubt it, and now he feels justified so he won't learn a thing he didn't give a toss.

I don't mind ashleigh actually I think her and helen are quite similar and that's why they clash, helens said it before, they're both bitches.

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by jet

[/B]

That is what people say when they want to excuse someones bad qualities

We all have bad qualities,we just have to deal with them the best way we can,and imo Helen is dealing with hers,so c'mon what does your housmate have to offer?

[Jake.]

Not suprised, it isn't the first ex-housemate who she's slagged off

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think they're quite different in a lot of ways or their lives are turning out differently atm and I'm not getting at Helen or 'hating' on her but I do think she looks at Ashleigh as someone 'having it easier' than she did in what she's achieved and maybe what Helen had to do in her life/the choices she felt she had at that age/or maybe didn't have family support..?..and there was some resentment, maybe jealousy there in the beginning..?..but that's before they actually gave each other a chance to start to understand each other and I think they're both guilty of judging, so similar in that way....the odd thing is though and why I personally get frustrated with Helen is that she's been hurt so much by being judged herself but is so much like that with others....

Well yes no two people can be similar in every way
I don't think it was on such a personal level but maybe they are both alpha types and saw each other as a threat in the competition?
Everyone judges, whether or not you have been judged yourself. She is changing, it may be the warning it might not but there has been a positive change.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

She was a whispering assassin with both toya and danielle so I don't feel that's strictly true.
Her strategy was just different is all.

[sampvt]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe, but only one of them is a bully and it ain't Ashleigh.

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well yes no two people can be similar in every way
I don't think it was on such a personal level but maybe they are both alpha types and saw each other as a threat in the competition?
Everyone judges, whether or not you have been judged yourself. She is changing, it may be the warning it might not but there has been a positive change.

..I would say in general that the females have been the alphas of the house this year and much stronger characters than the males and of the females after Toya and Pauline left, Helen and Ashleigh have been the strongest characters and both 'fighters and survivors' so I would say that's probably true to some extent....

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

[jet]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

BB already did that - Helen.
I don't recognize the Ashleigh you describe, but then its only your opinion which of course you are entitled to.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Jake.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

It's surprisingly seen as an asset, depending on who does it of course.

[sampvt]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I would say in general that the females have been the alphas of the house this year and much stronger characters than the males and of the females after Toya and Pauline left, Helen and Ashleigh have been the strongest characters and both 'fighters and survivors' so I would say that's probably true to some extent....

Being an absolute bitch does not give you an alpha badge. An Alpha figure is respected and trusted. Neither of them are alphas. The alpha in that house is the person everyone goes to when they need advice and need to talk to when problems arise. The alpha is the person who has a seat or place where he is found and can be consulted. The alpha is the person that stays calm under pressure, the alpha is the person that holds an audience and when he leaves, they all leave. In closing an alpha does not have to be the head of the gang, an alpha is the person who everyone feels comfortable with.

There is only one person that fits that bill and its Ash. He is a silent warrior and has the attention and love of all in there, he does not need to be screaming all the time. He is the alpha and of that there is no dispute. Helen looks up to him.

If you want confirmation of that fact, look at who challenged him yesterday when he was trying to be mad. They all just laughed nervously.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jake.

No it isn't.. People use the 'telling it how it is' card to be as disgustingly rude and brash as they like, not caring for how they make others feel

Oh don't I know that!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by sampvt

Being an absolute bitch does not give you an alpha badge. An Alpha figure is respected and trusted. Neither of them are alphas. The alpha in that house is the person everyone goes to when they need advice and need to talk to when problems arise. The alpha is the person who has a seat or place where he is found and can be consulted. The alpha is the person that stays calm under pressure, the alpha is the person that holds an audience and when he leaves, they all leave. In closing an alpha does not have to be the head of the gang, an alpha is the person who everyone feels comfortable with.

There is only one person that fits that bill and its Ash. He is a silent warrior and has the attention and love of all in there, he does not need to be screaming all the time. He is the alpha and of that there is no dispute. Helen looks up to him.

If you want confirmation of that fact, look at who challenged him yesterday when he was trying to be mad. They all just laughed nervously.

..I haven't seen anyone fill the true alpha role this year as such..maybe Pauline did in their eyes when she was there ..they didn't see her stifling of them but I think the 'alpha' this year because of the hostility of the house has been more who the 'group' feel protected by/their spokesperson and that's Helen...it's not a true alpha, although protection is a big part of an alpha..protect and provide...

[Patricia4]

He's OK is Ash but he's had no reason to get mad because he's got gob hole Helen on his apron strings twenty four hours she protects him all the time.
Helen slags everyone off given the chance.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

What about katie price?... she's been named in a 'comedic' sense and that was accepted as it's her and as it's a socially acceptable norm apparently to be as derogatory as you like about her seemingly.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh don't I know that!

Do you?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What about katie price?... she's been named in a 'comedic' sense and that was accepted as it's her and as it's a socially acceptable norm apparently to be as derogatory as you like about her seemingly.

..that's what I said though, it's not sociably acceptable to feel you can insult/offend anyone personally, that was just an analogy of something Helen does in feeling it's ok to 'say it to someone's face', when how more personal can you get than doing that..?...an any social environment there are boundaries and it's never deemed as a 'good trait' to insult someone and name call to their face...but bitching doesn't overstep that, whatever our personal feelings are about bitching....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jake.

Do you?

I do

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that's what I said though, it's not sociably acceptable to feel you can insult/offend anyone personally, that was just an analogy of something Helen does in feeling it's ok to 'say it to someone's face', when how more personal can you get than doing that..?...an any social environment there are boundaries and it's never deemed as a 'good trait' to insult someone and name call to their face...but bitching doesn't overstep that, whatever our personal feelings are about bitching....

'if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...'

They don't though, with some people they just don't.. like katie helen is given flack because it's acceptable and in a way expected because of the same perception of 'morality'.

She could be forgiven for being bitchy, in your face and aggressive if it wasn't for this added preconception.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...'

They don't though, with some people they just don't.. like katie helen is given flack because it's acceptable and in a way expected because of the same perception of 'morality'.

She could be forgiven for being bitchy, in your face and aggressive if it wasn't for this added preconception.

..sorry, you've lost me a bit..do you mean in how she's been perceived in the public and what the press/media have said in regards to Wayne and Colleen..?..I was referring to how she insults and offends/name calls in the house and when they hadn't done anything to her except maybe not approve of something she did or how she was acting....

[Amy Jade]

Helen was right though, she could have said much worse and still been right.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..sorry, you've lost me a bit..do you mean in how she's been perceived in the public and what the press/media have said in regards to Wayne and Colleen..?..I was referring to how she insults and offends/name calls in the house and when they hadn't done anything to her except maybe not approve of something she did or how she was acting....

Either or... there are some that it's just ok to knock and it rarely ever gets said it's 'too far'.
I was referring to how the media/public/forum react to katie/helen.( not all granted)
Helen wasn't the only one to make reactionary statements as pauline/toya did also and they fuelled each other to some extent.
Now they've gone there's been less aggression, still bitching obviously but that to be expected surely?

[user104658]

She's not wrong, but then, it is a bit rich coming from Helen who has dragged down multiple other housemates... To the extent that earlier on, a lot of the time her FRIENDS were even commenting on how much easier / nicer / happier it was whenever there was a party of whatever that she wasn't involved in . Most of them have even mentioned holding back on many occasions / trading on eggshells for fear that "it'll just kick off" with Helen.

[sampvt]

Helen hasn't reigned it in because she has been warned. She is no longer challenged and without an opponent, a fight is irrelevant. Her opponents now don't fight with her to her face, she (Ashleigh) does it behind her back and if you don't know people are talking about you, its a bit hard to go after them isn't it.