[Ammi]

Originally Posted by sampvt

The simple fact that Helens tactics and outward bitchiness is there for all to see, affords her the luxury of being transparent and being transparent is an endearing quality to have.

Ashleigh on the other hand has to go into the DR to unload he game plans, she goes up to the pod to bitch in silence with her little band, formerly Danielle and now Chris. She is the one that makes the bullets and is now letting Chris fire them for her and to prove this point, everyone she befriends gets evicted.

She is the girl at school that talks about people she hates to other girls that she knows will do her dirty work, she is the girl in the street who's mummy lets her stay up late, she is the girl in life who seems to have everything and she is the girl in business that has never been argued with and cant understand how people can be so nasty when they go up against her.

Ashleigh is a nice girl in her own right, she shows that when things are going her way but as soon as she is embroiled in a situation where she is under pressure, the only way she knows how to deal with it is to revert back to tactics that involve others fighting her battles and she keeps electing mammy figures in the house to hide behind.

Watch what happens when she gets under pressure, she runs to her cohorts. normal people get upset and show emotions on their own. Ashleigh gathers an audience then turns on the bitchy tap.

In short, Helen is open, Ashleigh is anything but. Helen wins that battle in my book. Now you choose who is the bully.

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..in a one to one though Sam, Helen's bitchiness isn't always there for everyone to see, she can have a conversation with someone, as can Ashleigh and they can both come to understandings of each other but Helen when she verbally abususes always has done it with a 'pack' behind her so that's not 'brave' and honest is it..?..bitching on any degree does not overstep any social boundaries with someone and become personal in the way that thinking you have the right to be offensive and abusive to someone's face does....hmmm, I'm trying to think of an analogy..with comedians/the controversial ones, their topics are of a lot of things that some would deem as 'offensive material' and others wouldn't..?...but if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...and when someone is arrogant enough to feel that it's their right to abuse someone/name call to their face then how more personal can you get and it crosses social boundaries....

What about katie price?... she's been named in a 'comedic' sense and that was accepted as it's her and as it's a socially acceptable norm apparently to be as derogatory as you like about her seemingly.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What about katie price?... she's been named in a 'comedic' sense and that was accepted as it's her and as it's a socially acceptable norm apparently to be as derogatory as you like about her seemingly.

..that's what I said though, it's not sociably acceptable to feel you can insult/offend anyone personally, that was just an analogy of something Helen does in feeling it's ok to 'say it to someone's face', when how more personal can you get than doing that..?...an any social environment there are boundaries and it's never deemed as a 'good trait' to insult someone and name call to their face...but bitching doesn't overstep that, whatever our personal feelings are about bitching....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that's what I said though, it's not sociably acceptable to feel you can insult/offend anyone personally, that was just an analogy of something Helen does in feeling it's ok to 'say it to someone's face', when how more personal can you get than doing that..?...an any social environment there are boundaries and it's never deemed as a 'good trait' to insult someone and name call to their face...but bitching doesn't overstep that, whatever our personal feelings are about bitching....

'if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...'

They don't though, with some people they just don't.. like katie helen is given flack because it's acceptable and in a way expected because of the same perception of 'morality'.

She could be forgiven for being bitchy, in your face and aggressive if it wasn't for this added preconception.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'if they were to be specific and offend a specific person, name that person type thing...?..then I think most of us would say...too far...'

They don't though, with some people they just don't.. like katie helen is given flack because it's acceptable and in a way expected because of the same perception of 'morality'.

She could be forgiven for being bitchy, in your face and aggressive if it wasn't for this added preconception.

..sorry, you've lost me a bit..do you mean in how she's been perceived in the public and what the press/media have said in regards to Wayne and Colleen..?..I was referring to how she insults and offends/name calls in the house and when they hadn't done anything to her except maybe not approve of something she did or how she was acting....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..sorry, you've lost me a bit..do you mean in how she's been perceived in the public and what the press/media have said in regards to Wayne and Colleen..?..I was referring to how she insults and offends/name calls in the house and when they hadn't done anything to her except maybe not approve of something she did or how she was acting....

Either or... there are some that it's just ok to knock and it rarely ever gets said it's 'too far'.
I was referring to how the media/public/forum react to katie/helen.( not all granted)
Helen wasn't the only one to make reactionary statements as pauline/toya did also and they fuelled each other to some extent.
Now they've gone there's been less aggression, still bitching obviously but that to be expected surely?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Either or... there are some that it's just ok to knock and it rarely ever gets said it's 'too far'.
I was referring to how the media/public/forum react to katie/helen.( not all granted)
Helen wasn't the only one to make reactionary statements as pauline/toya did also and they fuelled each other to some extent.
Now they've gone there's been less aggression, still bitching obviously but that to be expected surely?

..hmm, that's done with a lot of celebrities..Miley Cyrus seems to be another and then there is Tulisa with how she looks now and any surgery or enhancement she's had done, because she's not liked then it's ok..?../she's not 'human'..?,,and I don't agree with that either/the remarks...for me the biggest one on BB this year anyway was Biannca in terms of criticism she got on forums and social sites etc because she used certain terminology, showed her body and was very 'in you face' but not in an aggressive way, she had dreadful names cast at her of slut/slag/*****/disgusting/vile etc and in the short time she was there, probably as much as Helen has...and I don't agree with that at all but it has to be said that people who referred to Biannca with such names are objecting to Helen being referred to as the same when two wrongs etc..they're both not good to do....and it's the same for Helen when she insults and name calls people in the house, it's not an admirable trait, it's wrong..in no social environment is it right to do that and cross that boundary...and that's why many don't admire Helen...and also why they don't see the bitching by Ashleigh in the same vein because that doesn't cross any boundaries in the same way...