[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

You think that because I don't think the McCanns should be vilified forever but treated with a certain amount of pity, then I can't fully grasp what may have happened to that little girl? They don't know for sure their daughter is dead, and even if she is they can't even lay her to rest... they will probably never know what happened to her and have to live with that thought forever. But that isn't enough, is it. They did something incredibly stupid and negligent and now some people are delighting in their suffering and the constant trolling, slandering and libelling is uncomfortable to watch.

I don't delight in any of it, I would love to see justice served properly in this case, meaning that both of them should have faced prison time for negligence. Frankly, if they weren't middle class doctors with political connections they probably would have.

I have a massive, massive problem with what they did being excused because of the fact that they are suffering anyway - it sends a message that their actions were OK / normal / understandable / just unlucky rather than criminally negligent. They didn't just leave them alone. They almost certainly put them under sedation with over the counter antihistamines. This sort of thing is SHOCKINGLY common and a message has to be sent, whatever the cost, that it is not OK or normal or vaguely acceptable to endanger your children in this way.

Anyone can make an absent minded mistake. Anyone can get distracted and endanger someone in their care. This is not that. This was deliberate, calculated, blatant negligence. If they have to suffer more in order for just one more person to get the message that their actions were mind-boggling complacent then so be it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't delight in any of it, I would love to see justice served properly in this case, meaning that both of them should have faced prison time for negligence. Frankly, if they weren't middle class doctors with political connections they probably would have.

I have a massive, massive problem with what they did being excused because of the fact that they are suffering anyway - it sends a message that their actions were OK / normal / understandable / just unlucky rather than criminally negligent. They didn't just leave them alone. They almost certainly put them under sedation with over the counter antihistamines. This sort of thing is SHOCKINGLY common and a message has to be sent, whatever the cost, that it is not OK or normal or vaguely acceptable to endanger your children in this way.

Anyone can make an absent minded mistake. Anyone can get distracted and endanger someone in their care. This is not that. This was deliberate, calculated, blatant negligence. If they have to suffer more in order for just one more person to get the message that their actions were mind-boggling complacent then so be it.

I didn't mean that you personally were delighting in this, but you have to admit there are some pretty disgusting posts, both on this forum and on others, made by people who are clearly out to destroy the McCanns. If there was any evidence that they were involved I'm confident that they would have been charged by now.

I think the most telling words in what you said are "They almost certainly put them under sedation with over the counter antihistamines...". "Almost certainly" is not evidence. It's mostly hearsay, and whether or not there is any truth in those allegations, it's fair to say that no one here is privy to that evidence if it exists at all.

I would say that if the McCanns were as guilty as some people believe - and I'm not for one minute suggesting they did nothing wrong because of course they did - then why do they not just let it drop and blow over? Instead they've taken every opportunity to keep their daughter's name in the press and in people's minds. Everyone makes mistakes, on rare occasions those mistakes result in an horrendous crime. The person toward whom the venom should be directed in my opinion is the monster who took the child. Sadly, sometimes the fact that she was taken by a monster is overshadowed by people's indignation over the McCann's actions. It seems hideously skewed to me.

Again, I'm not addressing my comments to you personally and naturally you have a perfect right to you own opinion. It's when people's opinions roll over into the territory of trolling at best and libel at worst that I find it totally unacceptable.

[Jack_]

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

Always a good thing to have you join in and post Jack,I agree with all that.

[Ammi]

..I do think that they were extremely negligent, I don't think that the children should have been left alone, it's inconceivable to me that a parent could do that, not only once but again after Madeleine told them that she had woken the night before but they have had seven years already of having to live with that, with what they did...and seven years of not knowing where there daughter is or what happened to her, that in itself must be the worst sort of 'punishment' that a parent could have..the not knowing...I would think that they're their own 'torturers', they don't need anyone to constantly judge them because they must judge themselves every single day ...what good would them being charged and possibly convicted of negligence do for Madeleine..it wouldn't change anything but it would mean that their other children wouldn't have their parents if they did have to serve prison time...how would that be a good thing for any of them....

..I honestly think that Kate especially was 'judged' by many of the public almost from the minute it was known that Madeleine had been taken because she didn't 'look as though she was grieving' enough...but who's to say what someone who is grieving should look like, is there a certain way that people are expected to be..?...no, everyone is different and copes with their emotions differently...yes, they may have been negligent, I have no idea what they were thinking by leaving her alone, in my opinion it was completely wrong but it's been seven years, surely enough is enough and they've suffered enough judgement as well as the heartbreak of losing their daughter and not knowing what happened to her....

[Ammi]

..and also...I don't know if it's a good analogy but there was a thread a little while ago/a story..it was about a father who left his child in the backseat of his car in the full heat of the day and his son suffered an extremely painful death...he had forgotten that his son was there and he had forgotten to drop him off at nursery school...I remember reading about it on a few sites and there were many who showed sympathy in that, the father would have to live with what he did for the rest of his life and that's the worst punishment a parent could ever have, nothing you could do to him would be worse than what he himself had to live with....it was negligent, I don't think there's any question of that...but why so much coldness and so much unrelenting lack of compassion toward the McCanns for something that must torture them every single day...

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

Conversely I think the McCanns get more vitriol from the public directed at them because they are well off doctors. People go on about they got off on neglect charges from the authorities because of their class but I think they suffer worse from the general public perception because of it.

I think well hope, that most people feel the same for the parents of missing, murdered children irrespective of their background.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

I think that any rational person would care equally in cases such as these which involve children, no matter what social background or 'class' the principals are.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Conversely I think the McCanns get more vitriol from the public directed at them because they are well off doctors. People go on about they got off on neglect charges from the authorities because of their class but I think they suffer worse from the general public perception because of it.

I think well hope, that most people feel the same for the parents of missing, murdered children irrespective of their background.

There is a lot of truth in your post. I think so too.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

Freedom of speech does not set you free from libel and slander. If you say something on the Internet it is exactly the same as saying it aloud or writing it anywhere else. It saddens me when people try to invoke free speech to protect the stupidest, rudest most ignorant people in society and to free them up to spout their bile that has only one intention and that is to be hurtful. To see people claim freedom of speech in cases like this is to diminish what freedom of speech actually is.

I don't understand what you're getting at with the Shannon Matthews comment. Until the sorry plot was uncovered I would say generally people were concerned for the child and sympathetic to the family. Their background was not an issue, and the way it turned out it seems strange you would hold that up as an example.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Conversely I think the McCanns get more vitriol from the public directed at them because they are well off doctors. People go on about they got off on neglect charges from the authorities because of their class but I think they suffer worse from the general public perception because of it.

I think well hope, that most people feel the same for the parents of missing, murdered children irrespective of their background.

Totally agree, Annie.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..and also...I don't know if it's a good analogy but there was a thread a little while ago/a story..it was about a father who left his child in the backseat of his car in the full heat of the day and his son suffered an extremely painful death...he had forgotten that his son was there and he had forgotten to drop him off at nursery school...I remember reading about it on a few sites and there were many who showed sympathy in that, the father would have to live with what he did for the rest of his life and that's the worst punishment a parent could ever have, nothing you could do to him would be worse than what he himself had to live with....it was negligent, I don't think there's any question of that...but why so much coldness and so much unrelenting lack of compassion toward the McCanns for something that must torture them every single day...

I guess the difference is that that was an accident? He didn't purposely leave the child in the car where as the McCanns did decide to leave their children alone that night even after Maddie had told them that she'd woken the night before and had been crying when she couldn't find them?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I guess the difference is that that was an accident? He didn't purposely leave the child in the car where as the McCanns did decide to leave their children alone that night even after Maddie had told them that she'd woken the night before and had been crying when she couldn't find them?

This is the part that always gets to me.

We all make mistakes but making them several times leading to harsher consequences I will never understand.

Not that I don't have compassion for what they've gone through the last 7 years of course.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

This is the part that always gets to me.



We all make mistakes but making them several times leading to harsher consequences I will never understand.



Not that I don't have compassion for what they've gone through the last 7 years of course.

Yeah, I'm not for a second claiming to be a perfect parent or say I've not made mistakes myself, it's just no matter how hard I try to I can't put myself into their shoes and imagine how any decent parent could ever think that what they did was ok or how any parent could be that cold as to actually do it again after your 4 year old told you they were scared and cried when they woke up alone in a strange place and had no idea where you or any other adult was

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, I'm not for a second claiming to be a perfect parent or say I've not made mistakes myself, it's just no matter how hard I try to I can't put myself into their shoes and imagine how any decent parent could ever think that what they did was ok or how any parent could be that cold as to actually do it again after your 4 year old told you they were scared and cried when they woke up alone in a strange place and had no idea where you or any other adult was

And you don't feel a modicum of sympathy for the terrible result of their decision? I feel sorry for them, knowing that it was their actions that allowed some monster to take their child. It'd be bad enough in any case, but knowing they could have prevented it, the regret must torture them.

I haven't seen much hatred, or even much discussion, surrounding the person who took Maddie, only toward the McCanns, and I find that hard to fathom.

[Creggle]

They're using what happened to their daughter as a way to generate income. People should stop having opinions on them all together tbh, then they'd fade away.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I guess the difference is that that was an accident? He didn't purposely leave the child in the car where as the McCanns did decide to leave their children alone that night even after Maddie had told them that she'd woken the night before and had been crying when she couldn't find them?

..yeah, I do get what you're saying and I do think it was negligent but I think the other case with the father was also negligent..I think as a parent, both things would be inconceivable to me, either forgetting my child was there for an entire day or leaving my children while I went out for an evening, even once..let alone a second time...I know that two situations are never identical but I guess what I'm trying to say is that both were negligent parenting but with one, there was a certain level of 'sympathy' in that the father has to live with what he did for the rest of his life and that is the worst kind of 'punishment' for a parent anyway..I can't imagine any 'hate' that could be worse than the hate he must feel for himself and the result of his actions, it's a 'prison' that he will never escape...

..the thing with Madeleine saying that she had woken up the night before, yeah I know, that's awful/heartbreaking..but it was Kate herself that revealed that and she didn't have to...she's kind of brought a certain amount of judgement on herself with that..maybe she subconsciously wanted to be 'punished' the way she punishes herself over that night/who knows but to me, she would never have said that if she knew something about Madeleine's disappearance, which is what many of the public who 'hate' on the McCanns believe...wouldn't that just be stupid to say that and by someone who has been described as very 'composed' etc...also why would they keep the case in such high profile, wouldn't they want it all to 'go away'....anyway, it seems to me that the 'McCann hate' though came long before that was revealed ..almost from the moment that Madeleine went missing...they didn't use the 'right' terminology when they discovered she was missing, they didn't show the 'right' emotions publicly...Kate came across as 'cold'...but she looked like someone in shock to me...many of the public just didn't take to them, which I can understand but with that, it automatically meant to some members of the public that they were guilty of something much more sinister than negligence ..they had already been tried and found guilty and I think that public judgement was then also going to be more severe and hateful for them than a lot of other parents who may also have shown negligence with their children....it's almost like on some sites and with some people, that 'hate' for Gerry and Kate is far more a motivation for malicious comments than anything else/any concerns in finding Madeleine...and Madeleine's disappearance is always going to be a 'legacy' for her siblings, what happened to her etc... but I can't see that having to read about the hate for their parents as well and the 'theories' could be anything other than more damaging to them and how could it have been or ever be good for their welfare for Kate and Gerry to be charged with negligence and maybe imprisoned.. ..is seven years of relentless 'hate' not enough for the public to have shown their disapproval of the McCann's actions and decisions that night...

...some of the public maybe feel that there should have been charges of negligence but there wasn't..they have though been 'punished' for seven years, both by having to live with the consequences and with public hate...with anything else, they are totally innocent..they are innocent because they haven't been charged so the law says they are innocent ..and really all we have is the law because without that, there would just be 'mob lynching'..or maybe 'internet lynching' .. which is why I think that people who do say some of the disgusting and hate-filled things that have been said on Twitter in this case should be held accountable for the things they say...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't see the problem, for a start the majority of those are clearly jokes, secondly they don't even appear to have been sent directly to the McCann's as claimed and have been posted on their personal Twitter accounts (in which case freedom of speech blah blah blah) and lastly regardless of whether Kate and Gerry are responsible or not (I don't really have an opinion) they still left a three children of unacceptably young ages alone in a foreign country, contempt is to be expected.

I wonder if the people who care so much about them cared so much about Shannon Matthews and her family before the truth to that case was revealed.

http://news.sky.com/story/1345871/ev...gainst-mccanns



[Many social media users have expressed anger
towards the internet trolls following news of the investigation into abuse of the McCanns.
However, a significant number have also voiced their support for ‘Sweepyface’,
who has since deactivated her Twitter account.
In addition to threats and abuse, several trolls have claimed to live
nearby to the McCanns in Leicestershire and reported on their movements.
The campaigner spearheading the appeal - who has asked to
remain anonymous - told Sky News: "We're very worried that it's only going
to take somebody to act out of some of these discussions, some of the threats
that have been made, and we couldn't live with ourselves if that happened and we had done nothing."]



This Reporter Martin Brunt is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlQJbsVs48
SkyNews is now Live on a YouTube link and you click 1080PHD on the setting


[ This is SkyNewsInternational which never has a clock, therefore we also have no ad breaks ]

[Ammi]

..anyway, I guess what I meant to say (in fewer words..)..is that public hatred for the McCanns imo happened long before it was ever known that Madeleine woke up the night before, which Kate revealed herself anyway and before many other things were known and it's been a very 'determined' hate which would always find some release... and sadly, hate quite often clouds other things, like how it's going to be for Madeleine's siblings to read this stuff about their parents and the 'theories' and that I think it was in their best interests to have their parents with them through these seven years....so yeah, negligent but I can't see the value on an already broken family of them having being charged and convicted...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I guess the difference is that that was an accident? He didn't purposely leave the child in the car where as the McCanns did decide to leave their children alone that night even after Maddie had told them that she'd woken the night before and had been crying when she couldn't find them?

This is it, it wasn't just Madeleine that was left but 2 younger children with her too. I have never understood that,my Parents would never have ever left me on my own at that age for any reason,let alone just to go socialising.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

And you don't feel a modicum of sympathy for the terrible result of their decision? I feel sorry for them, knowing that it was their actions that allowed some monster to take their child. It'd be bad enough in any case, but knowing they could have prevented it, the regret must torture them.

I haven't seen much hatred, or even much discussion, surrounding the person who took Maddie, only toward the McCanns, and I find that hard to fathom.

Because this "person who took Maddie" is only a theory, there is no evidence to say she was actually abducted, it's just what they think was the most likely theory No one actually knows for sure what happened to maddie so how can anyone discuss or direct any hatred towards him/her/them?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I didn't mean that you personally were delighting in this, but you have to admit there are some pretty disgusting posts, both on this forum and on others, made by people who are clearly out to destroy the McCanns.,,

There are if course disgusting posts but I don't find any of the accusatory ones to be disgusting, whether right or wrong. There are people who genuinely take pleasure in things like this (and in any "horror story") and that is disgusting, there's nothing funny about any of it no matter what happened to her, but then on a broader scale... Desensitisation is just what happens with media saturation. Trolls will find any reason to troll. I don't feel like they've been targeted more than many other "celebrities" which is unfortunately what they've become.

If there was any evidence that they were involved I'm confident that they would have been charged by now.

I think the most telling words in what you said are "They almost certainly put them under sedation with over the counter antihistamines...". "Almost certainly" is not evidence. It's mostly hearsay, and whether or not there is any truth in those allegations, it's fair to say that no one here is privy to that evidence if it exists at all.

I would say that if the McCanns were as guilty as some people believe - and I'm not for one minute suggesting they did nothing wrong because of course they did - then why do they not just let it drop and blow over? Instead they've taken every opportunity to keep their daughter's name in the press and in people's minds.

almost certainly because whilst it has been established that the other two children had been sedated, the McCann's offered the explanation that the kidnapper sedated all three kids before taking her. Given the somewhat shocking "popularity" of sedating children for convenience, the fact that both McCann's are doctors, that they had had trouble with the kids the night before, and that they went out socialising again... I find that explanation extremely dubious and pretty much on the periphery of plausibility.

As for why they might not just let it blow over - less than 20% of the donated funds have gone into looking for maddy with substantially more spend on lawyers protecting the parents from legal scrutiny and attempting to protect then from public scrutiny. That much is fact. The reasons for that are conjecture.

Everyone makes mistakes, on rare occasions those mistakes result in an horrendous crime. The person toward whom the venom should be directed in my opinion is the monster who took the child. Sadly, sometimes the fact that she was taken by a monster is overshadowed by people's indignation over the McCann's actions. It seems hideously skewed to me.

It depends on whether or not you believe that she was indeed abducted, I suppose. It may be conspiracy theory territory but it's perfectly viable: her abduction is not fact, it is the current line of enquiry and has been for almost the entire time, but at the end of the day the case is UNSOLVED. No one knows what actually happened to her. I personally am a believer in the good old razor and find "she was drowsy in a strange room with a hard floor, she fell and hit her head and they panicked" more realistic than the one in a million stealthy ninja ghoul child snatcher who entered through the patio, no wait, a tiny window, no wait, he had a key somehow, and drugs to sedate them, and he then slipped away unseen and unheard never to repeat offend.

Regardless, like I said, the case is unsolved and no matter what anyone may think, either (or any other) explanation could be true. It's not for anyone to state anything as truth, but we can decide which we find most plausible.
And like I said earlier in the thread, for me it doesn't matter. Whether she was abducted or had an accident is irrelevant although I personally HOPE she did have an accident because at least then she might not have suffered... But anyway, it doesn't matter because the facts outside of that remain the same.

They neglected her and caused her death.

And I agree that anyone can make a mistake with tragic consequences, but that's not really relevant either... Prisons are full of people who made mistakes with tragic consequences. Drunk drivers who knocked children off of their bikes and killed them. Who will also be wracked with guilt for the rest of their lives. It isn't and shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. They should have been charged with negligence but there's never even been a sniff of it.

Interesting comparison: a young woman in my town had her 3 year old daughter taken into care because she left her at home in bed and went out to a club. Nothing even happened to the girl, someone just informed social services. This is right. She was dangerously negligent. I am 100% convinced that if her daughter had died or been harmed, that women would be behind bars. The same should obviously apply.

I think what bothers me most of all, though, is that in all of their publicity they have never once attempted to say "please for the love of God, to all parents, don't make this same mistake". They have always avoided blame or guilt, and branded themselves as unlucky victims.

I don't think Maddy will ever see any sort of justice. No matter what happened to her.

[Niamh.]

Great Post TS

[CaudleHalbard]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Because this "person who took Maddie" is only a theory, there is no evidence to say she was actually abducted, it's just what they think was the most likely theory No one actually knows for sure what happened to maddie so how can anyone discuss or direct any hatred towards him/her/them?

It slightly annoys me when the media talk of Maddie being "taken" or "abducted".

There is no evidence of such an act.

On the other hand, there is purportedly evidence (albeit hotly disputed by the McCanns) that the child died in their holiday apartment. An English translation of Gonçalo Amaral's book is online; whether or not you agree with its conclusions, it is worth reading if you are at all interested in this very strange case.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

It slightly annoys me when the media talk of Maddie being "taken" or "abducted".

There is no evidence of such an act.

On the other hand, there is purportedly evidence (albeit hotly disputed by the McCanns) that the child died in their holiday apartment. An English translation of Gonçalo Amaral's book is online; whether or not you agree with its conclusions, it is worth reading if you are at all interested in this very strange case.

Yeah, I am definitely going to get round to reading that