[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have already stated in a response to Bobnot that my post which you commented on, was part knee-jerk reaction and part rushed, and that perhaps I was clouded by outrage and disgust by the atrocities in France and did not perhaps make clear what I meant to say.

What I find astonishing though MTVN, is the numbers of people on here who repeatedly fail to post in condemnation of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists every time they slaughter yet more innocent people, but who will yet post the most angry condemnations of people like myself who do post to condemn the atrocities if they deem us to have been xenophobic or racist, anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant.

Why is that?

I have posted a few times in this thread stating my revulsion to the current terrorist attack , and I like others have become a touch heated in my thoughts and ideas for tackling the growing problem.

But atrocity after atrocity nothing seems ever to change in the stance held by the Muslim communities in this Country and other Western European countries. This is not just our problem it is theirs too, they must speak up more and use the mosques to de-radicalise the young Muslims that buy into extreme Islamist views.

They must seek to educate young Muslim children against the teachings of hate,jihad and extremism.

The non Muslim majority cannot do all of this on their own whilst the muslim communities just sit back and offer standard condemnations. They must do more or eventually they will be accused of complicity and real divisions will start to show.

As one poster said earlier , worst case scenario is that we end up fighting on the streets with right wing EDL groups firebombing Mosques.

This is not a million miles away, if this type of attack were to start happening against Christians or Jews/ Hindus then I fear for all of us.

If Islam is such a peaceful loving religion then why are the Muslim Communities not marching in the streets against these barbaric attacks ?




.

[Beso]

Kick them all out.

Seriously, kick them all out.

[arista]

Its OK Honey
they will keep you safe

[arista]

Yes Fella they are are out there now Even FoxNewsHD

[arista]

Its Dark Now
so many old Farm buildings to be checked.



Those 2 Terrorists
with there Guns could shoot down the Helicopter

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I have posted a few times in this thread stating my revulsion to the current terrorist attack , and I like others have become a touch heated in my thoughts and ideas for tackling the growing problem.

But atrocity after atrocity nothing seems ever to change in the stance held by the Muslim communities in this Country and other Western European countries. This is not just our problem it is theirs too, they must speak up more and use the mosques to de-radicalise the young Muslims that buy into extreme Islamist views.

They must seek to educate young Muslim children against the teachings of hate,jihad and extremism.

The non Muslim majority cannot do all of this on their own whilst the muslim communities just sit back and offer standard condemnations. They must do more or eventually they will be accused of complicity and real divisions will start to show.

As one poster said earlier , worst case scenario is that we end up fighting on the streets with right wing EDL groups firebombing Mosques.

This is not a million miles away, if this type of attack were to start happening against Christians or Jews/ Hindus then I fear for all of us.

If Islam is such a peaceful loving religion then why are the Muslim Communities not marching in the streets against these barbaric attacks ?

.

I cannot fault you at all Nedusa. I am genuinely afraid that it is already too late. I'm beginning to feel like we who speak out about this are being viewed as the 'terrorists'. Just heard about the retaliatory grenades thrown at the Mosque in Le Mans, and fear it's already starting.

Depressed really. Either I'm crazy or there are a lot of blind, deaf and dumb, people in a state of denial.

[Sticks]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Are you for real? 12 innocent people brought violent death upon themselves, and immense heartbreak upon their grieving partners, children and parents, because they published a cartoon?

"People's sacred beliefs"? Their is NOTHING more sacred than HUMAN LIFE.

"Respect and restraint"? LISTEN to yourself. What RESPECT and RESTRAINT have these murdering cowards ever shown ANYONE who does not yield to their threats, does not conform to their ideology?

I am disgusted to hear these words issue from a Brit while 12 innocent people lay butchered in Paris.

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Sticks

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

again you blame everyone but the murderers?

next you will be telling us that girls who wear short skirts deserve to get raped as they "had it coming"?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Sticks

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

Yes Sticks The boss knew it was a risk
he was on a Hit List.

But the President of France is also to blame
as he made the protection smaller
saving money.

[Dollface]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

again you blame everyone but the murderers?

next you will be telling us that girls who wear short skirts deserve to get raped as they "had it coming"?

^

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

You're right, BL. Many victims of ISIL are Muslim. And many are not. And many Western Muslims condemn atrocities and support the people suffering. And many Western non-Muslims do the same. It's unfair to suggest that people only make a noise about this stuff when it happens in Europe or the US. People of all colours and creeds have been sickened by ISIL's actions in the Middle East and have not been backward in voicing that.

And now the fight is being brought to the streets of European capitals and really, no one is safe. But there is still a general reluctance for Muslims to come forward and condemn what the terrorists do, let alone pass on intelligence that could be helpful to the security services.

Thank you... once again, I've agreed with everything you've said today... All hail Queen Livia

[Sticks]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

again you blame everyone but the murderers?

next you will be telling us that girls who wear short skirts deserve to get raped as they "had it coming"?

Yet again I do not use the expression, "Had it coming", but "brought it on themselves"

There is a response to your hypothetical, which is not mine but from the wife of a former evangelist I used to know, but that would be off topic.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by arista

Strict Muslims
will not allow you
to joke about them

And the rest of the world who have the intelligence to see these backward thinking, cowardly bully boys for what they are will never allow such trash to intimidate them.

These cowardly animals may be able to intimidate their own unarmed women and girls into submission, but only mentally challenged Muslim extremists can actually believe they can take on the rest of us.

Bunch of no-hopers trying deperately to be somebodys. In their dreams!

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Sticks

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

Islam is simply one religion among many and has no right to special consideration. All religions are open to ridicule - no exceptions for Islam. The more they try to put themselves on a pedalstall through threats and intimidation, the worse they make it for themselves and hence bring it on themselves. Do they really believe they can intimidate everyone.

The rest of the world should not and will not allow these idiots to intimidate them. Shame on anyone who says they should.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Sticks

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

Yes you are right they had it coming all right.... For putting their pencils on a piece of paper and making a few shapes they deserved to have someone come into their place of work and empty half a Kalashnikov magazine into them.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

I never said I supported banning Muslims entering the UK, the closure of mosques (unless they support extremists, and let's face it, some do) or any other unlawful action. However, when the first reaction of so many people is "oh the poor ordinary Muslims" it's a skewed, in my opinion.

The vast majority of people already know that most Muslims are ordinary, hard-working, law-abiding members of the community and only the very stupidest in our society would target them based simply on their religion. And keeping the focus on ordinary Muslims and worrying about how the stupidest people in society will react IS taking away from the terrorist attrocity by pre-empting the victimisation of innocent Muslims where clearly that isn't happening. I haven't seen twelve Muslims shot dead in Paris. I haven't seen a Muslim hacked to death on the streets of Britain, nor have I seen a mass coming together of Muslims to denounce the action of their brothers and sisters.

IMO that's the wrong attitude when for the vast majority of Muslims in the West they are going to have more in common with you and me than they are these extremists. There is a common enemy here and I find it near impossible to generalise across the Muslim population in any way considering how bitterly divided their religion is. The Islamic world is tearing itself apart right now the way that the Christian world did in the 16th and 17th centuries. I don't believe your average Muslim in the West should feel any guilt or responsibility about this when they too are a victim of it. And I do think it is important to make that point, else we risk becoming engulfed in racial violence and chaos. I'd go even further and say that distinguishing ordinary Muslims from extremists is vital to confronting and tackling extremism in general, and not just a token and insensitive gesture by self-righteous leftists. After all, one of the police officers killed yesterday was himself a Muslim which does tragically illustrate the point. If we can't remind people that extremists do not represent all Islam on the day that a Muslim police officer has laid down his life to prevent terrorism, then when can we? Shall we wait till grenades have been thrown at Mosques - as has now happened - before anyone speaks up? It's what was so positive imo about the Sydney attacks that Australians immediately expressed their solidarity with the Muslim population rather than turning on it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Yet again I do not use the expression, "Had it coming", but "brought it on themselves"

The magazine pokes fun at all religions. They've had a go at the Jews regularly. Do I like it? Not particularly. Do I uphold their right to do it? Absolutely. Islam is not a special case, they've tried to make themselves a special case and some people believe that spin - obviously. The Quran itself questions other religions and fundamentalist Muslims regard non-Muslims as little more than animals. But we have to be respectful of a religion that feels that way? A religion (I'm referring exclusively to ISIL and other fundamentalist terrorists) men that rape, torture, murder, desecrate churches and synagogues murdering people in their place of worship and other assorted atrocities, all in the name of Allah. And if we're not respectful of their religion, they'll rock up on our doorstep with automatic weapons and a rocket launcher? And you have little sympathy with the dead because they "brought it on themselves"? Incredible.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

IMO that's the wrong attitude when for the vast majority of Muslims in the West they are going to have more in common with you and me than they are these extremists. There is a common enemy here and I find it near impossible to generalise across the Muslim population in any way considering how bitterly divided their religion is. The Islamic world is tearing itself apart right now the way that the Christian world did in the 16th and 17th centuries. I don't believe your average Muslim in the West should feel any guilt or responsibility about this when they too are a victim of it. And I do think it is important to make that point, else we risk becoming engulfed in racial violence and chaos. I'd go even further and say that distinguishing ordinary Muslims from extremists is vital to confronting and tackling extremism in general, and not just a token and insensitive gesture by self-righteous leftists. After all, one of the police officers killed yesterday was himself a Muslim which does tragically illustrate the point. If we can't remind people that extremists do not represent all Islam on the day that a Muslim police officer has laid down his life to prevent terrorism, then when can we? Shall we wait till grenades have been thrown at Mosques - as has now happened - before anyone speaks up? It's what was so positive imo about the Sydney attacks that Australians immediately expressed their solidarity with the Muslim population rather than turning on it.

There has been a bit of a backlash, as I said before, by the stupidest people in society. But the vast majority of people understand the difference between Muslims and terrorists. You studied in Norwich, there has been a Muslim community in Norwich for hundreds of years, one of the oldest Muslim communities in the country. There has been no backlash against them because people understand the difference.

I don't see anyone turning on the Muslim community as a whole. I see a couple of kneejerk comments after twelve people were gunned down in cold blood. I worked quite a bit in Jordan last year. There is no shortage of Muslims utterly condemning the actions of ISIL who are just one border away from them. I want to see everyone standing together to condemn these people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, people with no faith... If we're going to stand together we need to be seen to be standing together.

[Johnnyuk123]

I think France will respond soon by bring in new laws asap to tackle this serious problem and shut their borders whilst they deal with these terrorists until further notice.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Sticks

First of all I said they brought it on themselves NOT They had it coming, which some apparently have said. Those two are not the same!

Suppose you go up to a wasp's nest and hit it with a big stick. If you get stung, you will have brought it on yourself, not that you had it coming.

Going back as far as the 1980's and the Satanic Verses, it is well known that by offending Islam, violent reprisals will be metered out. It happened in Denmark over cartoons of their holy prophet, where British Newspapers showed respect and restraint by refusing to publish them.

This magazine was fire bombed in 2011, so they should have learned from that, not to insult Islam, they persisted in their unfettered "Freedom of speech" clichés and this was the result. It was predictable this would happen so what what were they thinking?

That magazine should not have published those cartoons. By doing so they provoked this action.

For those going on about "Freedom of Speech", sometimes they forget, even in the UK, it has limits.

On this very forum, text speak is not permitted by forum rules, you could argue that is an unacceptable curtailment of freedom of speech, but in practice, we all accept and abide by that rule.

In the wider environment, we have laws against incitement to hatred, based on race, gender, religion and orientation. Those claiming the trump card of freedom of speech are quick to condemn anyone who is not politically correct. It cuts both way!

That is a very strange analogy

[T*]

Originally Posted by Cherie

That is a very strange analogy

this

[T*]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

again you blame everyone but the murderers?

next you will be telling us that girls who wear short skirts deserve to get raped as they "had it coming"?

This

[the truth]

the trouble is because the views of the silent majority are being oppressed and silenced by liberal twats calling them all racist bigots, then the frustration grows to boilding point. worse fo all these hypocritical liberals all voted for illegal wars in foreign fields, killion a million innocents, yet these same liberals get more offended by words than a million deaths.....these liberal are as guilty of creating the environment for terrorism as anyone

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Islam is not really a normal anything


What is the ruling on the apostate?

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

http://islamqa.info/en/20327

Youtube video

Yea I was gonna say moderate instead of normal, but I think that makes it sound like the moderate ones are not the regular ones.

And I understand in part how messed up their religion is (I hadn't heard of that apostate rule before), however there is a lot of muslims who seem to be decent peaceful people. I suppose in essence it's just like the other main religions; primitive, sexist and homophobic, except it's worse.

Anyway there is something wrong in the way we (the west) educate people who are raised here if they are going off and fighting on the same side as Islamic State or carrying out attacks, in their name, on our soil.

So I think the solution isn't to demonize all muslims, it's education.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Yea I was gonna say moderate instead of normal, but I think that makes it sound like the moderate ones are not the regular ones.

And I understand in part how messed up their religion is (I hadn't heard of that apostate rule before), however there is a lot of muslims who seem to be decent peaceful people. I suppose in essence it's just like the other main religions; primitive, sexist and homophobic, except it's worse.

Anyway there is something wrong in the way we (the west) educate people who are raised here if they are going off and fighting on the same side as Islamic State or carrying out attacks, in their name, on our soil.

So I think the solution isn't to demonize all muslims, it's education.

I believe you are wrong. this is a problem with one specific religion , it has nothing to do with other religions at all. that must be made very clear. Christianity and islam are wholly differnt and in many ways its becoming clear they are worlds apart and perhaps cannot be expected to live together in peace