[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not known yet whether there is any connection but two policemen injured in a second Paris shooting...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...un-attack.html

No not connected
confirmed now

[MTVN]

So one of the police officers who was shot yesterday was himself a Muslim reportedly. Part of the solution to combating extremism is to not make out that the vast majority of Muslims in the West are anything other than our allies in this conflict. We should stop treating them as different to us, demanding that 'they' do more which by implication links them to their attackers. Yes they share the same faith but that faith is bitterly divided, there is a battle going on within the Muslim world at the moment. I admit this isn't a great analogy but it's sort of akin to have demanded that Catholic communities and leaders do more about, and take responsibility for, the actions of Protestant Ulster loyalists.

People moan about Muslims not doing enough or not integrating, well this Islamic officer who died was out every day risking his safety to protect Paris' streets and has paid with his life for that; is that not enough? Or is not enough that thousands of Muslims are in our police and our armed forces. To take it global its worth remembering that its Muslims who are the biggest death statistic from extremism, and its other Muslims who are taking the biggest risk right now on the front line against ISIS. The minute you start to treat them all the same you lose sight of what Islamic extremism really is and how to combat it. It's not a battle that the West can fight alone.

And like ITILYT said there are organisations that Muslims have set up themselves in the West to combat extremism that get very little coverage. Just as the numerous condemnations that flooded in immediately from across the Muslim world receive very little coverage.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I am not saying we should turn on our Muslim neighbours or bring back internment camps, but ALL Muslim immigrants must try and integrate into British society observe our laws,culture and traditions.

We are a Christian Country regardless of how many people go to church so all our Christian holidays should be allowed to be celebrated fully without any dumbing down to other faiths.

Our press freedoms and freedom of speech are part of our democracy and as such we have the right to poke fun or satirise ALL religious icons including Mohammed.

We have a right to smoke and drink alcohol and we have a right to wear the shortest skirts we can fit into. It is NOT against our laws.

We have a right to let our hair be shown , freely uncovered.

We ( women) have a right to an education, to have a career , drive a car go out at night unchaperoned.

And we have a right NOT to be stoned to death because someone thinks we don't have these rights.

This is just a snapshot of some of the things we have fought for over the decades with millions dying in World Wars to preserve these rights.

I for one will resist to my dying breath any attempt to take away these rights.

It does not take a genius to see that we as a Country have started to play down and dilute our holiest days like Christmas or Easter . Why are we doing this ?

Now our freedom of speech is under attack...... No British Newspaper has the balls today to publish the cartoons that caused the atrocity yesterday. No they are fearful so you could argue the terrorists are winning.

So back to our Muslim neighbours yes live here in peace, integrate and respect our laws, culture, religion etc....

If they are not happy to do that then they should crawl back under the sand dune they came from.




.

Completely agree with this, tbf though I don't know any that don't celebrate Christmas, same for Sikhs, Jews etc, I think the dumbing down of Christmas and Easter is more to do with following America, Spring Break and Happy Holidays are American traditions, as are Halloween and now God help us we have decided to import Black Friday.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So one of the police officers who was shot yesterday was himself a Muslim reportedly. Part of the solution to combating extremism is to not make out that the vast majority of Muslims in the West are anything other than our allies in this conflict. We should stop treating them as different to us, demanding that 'they' do more which by implication links them to their attackers. Yes they share the same faith but that faith is bitterly divided, there is a battle going on within the Muslim world at the moment. I admit this isn't a great analogy but it's sort of akin to have demanded that Catholic communities and leaders do more about, and take responsibility for, the actions of Protestant Ulster loyalists.

People moan about Muslims not doing enough or not integrating, well this Islamic officer who died was out every day risking his safety to protect Paris' streets and has paid with his life for that; is that not enough? Or is not enough that thousands of Muslims are in our police and our armed forces. To take it global its worth remembering that its Muslims who are the biggest death statistic from extremism, and its other Muslims who are taking the biggest risk right now on the front line against ISIS. The minute you start to treat them all the same you lose sight of what Islamic extremism really is and how to combat it. It's not a battle that the West can fight alone.

And like ITILYT said there are organisations that Muslims have set up themselves in the West to combat extremism that get very little coverage. Just as the numerous condemnations that flooded in immediately from across the Muslim world receive very little coverage.

..great post Matt..and I think that everyone wants this to stop but it's how to do that though..do we attack back and kill innocents in the same vein they have done, how is that going to stop anything or indeed not only make it escalate even more and just create more innocent deaths...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I think it's a shame that more people will hate normal islamic people because of this.

Islam is not really a normal anything


What is the ruling on the apostate?

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

http://islamqa.info/en/20327

Youtube video

[Crimson Dynamo]

Youtube video

You can skip to 4.30 for Hitchen's excellent and relevant point

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I don't see how we would need to waive any of our rights to freedom and free speech Bitonthe side? We are already waiving away those rights daily by allowing these bastards to intimidate us and stop Nativity plays in our Christian schools, stop the wearing of crucifixes around the necks of our nurses, and a host of other 'forced' changes to our Western democratic way of life, and we are already allowing them to intimidate us and curb our rights to free speech because we dare not speak any truths if it is a truth about Muslims, immigrants or foreigners in general.

It is time to stop ALL immigration but especially of Muslims - be they Black, Brown, Asian or Eastern Europeans, and feck the EU - what are they going to do, slap us?

Time is NOT on our side and we have NOT got several generations. By that time we will all definitely be under Sharia law or dead.

Lebanon was a Westernised Christian democracy, and it became Islamified in less than half a generation.

When germs enter our bodies through our skin, the body's defence mechanicism kicks into action; the wound is sealed off to stop further infestation, and the little white soldiers which are our antibodies swoop on the invaders and kick the feck out of them to protect our bodies.

We should learn from nature - seal off our borders and stop letting the bastards in, thereby making it easier for our Security Services to deal with the millions already here.

We should also learn from current affairs because the atrocities in Holland, Australia and Paris weren't committed by an invading army, but by fecking IMMIGRANTS which those countries had welcomed and embraced and and allowed to live there. FFS even Jihadi John hails from the UK.

It's time now for the UK people to take to the streets, shout from the rooftops and go on strike if need be to FORCE our weak leaders to CLOSE our borders and stand up to the bastards who are already here. It's time to Stop appeasing them and start INVESTIGATING them. Sniff out the 5th columnists and sympathisers and BOOT the ***** out. Feck Brussels.

Our lilly livered politicians are not ready for that.But in the end it will come to that,More than likely when it is too late and there is all out war on the streets.People will eventually wake up to the slow,step by step Islamification of our society but by then things will be dire.In years to come when the native population of our tiny Island becomes a minority and we are fighting for our freedom and being attacked,bombed and shot regularly.People will look back at the last two decades and say 'Wtf were they thinking'.I think France will eventually take the lead on taking a hard line approach to combatting terrorism and uncontrolled immigration and we and other European nations will follow in their footsteps.At the moment nobody has the balls to take the first stance but i feel France is on its way.

[lostalex]

The world needs to crack down on Islam and Muslims the same way the USA cracked down on the KKK and racists in the 1960s.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Possibly the most small minded and bigoted crap post i have ever read on here and that takes some doing. I have many friends of all religions and origins and some of them shock and horror are also people that have immigrated here and have just as much right to be here as you do.
Twice in my life i have had had to be evacuated due to bombs placed by Christian extremist groups and once been within earshot of a huge bomb detonated by Christians should i hate them? should i tar them all with the same brush?
No because that would be idiotic.
Get a sense of perspective ffs and stop reading too much right wing propaganda it's rotting your brain.
The amount of religious intolerance you display is so hypocritical coming from someone that claims to be a Christian and yet takes a piss fit whenever anyone sniggers at people that believe in a god.
Your post is offensive and discriminatory to almost a quarter of the people on the planet and is uneducated reactionary bollocks based on the actions of 3 lunatics.

I find your post bigoted and highly offensive, and it's a pity that this latest in a long line of atrocities did not move you so readily to condemn it on here with the same anger and passion that my post has invoked in you.

I notice also your reluctance to ascribe any terrorist murderers as Islamist or Muslim, as in; "3 lunatics".

Before you start criticising what I contend and before you start making personal attacks on me - get your facts straight.

Where have I had a "a piss fit whenever anyone sniggers at people that believe in a god."?

Are you referring to the times when I have responded to certain people who have posted to merely ridicule those of us having an earnest discussion on religion? What do you propose I should do - stay quiet, be apathetic, lethargic? Oh wait a minute, maybe I'm confused because that's what you propose we should all do on immigration and terrorism issues. isn't it?

Where in any of my posts prior to this thread have I displayed "religious intolerance"?

I think you are so blinded by 'immigrant/Muslim defensive rage' that I had the temerity to state what I did, that you are confusing me with the Islamic Fundamentalist murdering mongols who take "religious intolerance" to its extreme and who have it preached to them throughout the text in their holy book.

I have posted many comprehensive articles on here stating that ordinary Muslims are not to blame for these atrocities and that a lot of them openly condemn the terrorists behind them, and I still do stand by that.

So perhaps I should have made that point clearer in the post you object to, but that post was part knee-jerk reaction to yet another sickening atrocity carried out by these evil bastards, and part hurried due to certain factors, so I will better explain what I meant to put in my post.

The irrefutable facts are that these atrocities are not being perpetrated by armed invaders arriving here openly on gunboats from Syria, Afghanistan or the Yemen, but by immigrants who have been welcomed in with open arms .
by the very host countries in which they carry out their barbaric slaughter.

And therein lies the problem; how to effectively vet the floods of immigrants into this and other Western Democratic countries to detect such terrorists and prevent them from entering.

As they do not wear labels saying 'I'm a A 5th Columnist Terrorist Get Me In There' it's an impossible task, but because this problem with immigrant terrorist atrocities is becoming more frequent and their acts more audacious, something clearly has to be done.

The answer is unfortunate but necessary; stop all immigration by Muslims - even if only temporarily - to allow our Security Services to function effectively. Give them the not inconsiderable hundreds of millions saved by stopping further immigration to enable them to rigorously investigate suspected terrorists and their sympathisers among those Muslim immigrants already here. And our Security Services are not clueless, they have their lists, but are restricted by 'red tape', lack of funds and time. So buy our Security Services the precious time to carry out such investigations without them having to concern themselves with how many more potential terrorists may be entering the UK daily among the new influx of immigrants. Strip away the 'red tape', let them do their job.

Ordinary peace-loving Muslims will not be offended by such an action, they will welcome it, and the one's who raise their voices in protest screaming 'racism' and 'xenophobia' will expose themselves as not being 'ordinary peace-loving Muslims' because no sane, decent person will ever protest against necessary measures taken to end this senseless slaughter of innocent lives.

I for one prefer to be accused of 'over-reacting' than not reacting at all. I prefer being accused of 'going too far' than having inertia and not moving at all, and unlike you and others like you, I don't sit back and lambaste those who at least propose some type of action to counter terrorism, nor criticise such proposals without proffering alternatives.

So just what do you propose that we should do about this terrorist problem?

Do you accept that such terrorists spring from the immigrant communities of the host countries where they are committing their bloodbaths? If so, just what do you advocate as the best way of solving the problem of identifying such 5th columnists from among the immigrant masses?

What do you contend is the best way of protecting Western Democracies from further infiltration by covert terrorists and their sympathisers which isn't offensive to Muslims, Immigrants, and their supporters?

Please post and enlighten me.

Oh, and I an genuinely sorry to hear of your problems and suffering at the hands of Christian extremists but would seriously be interested in knowing which conflict that was.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Well that's quite the escalation between posts

Sorry, Shaun but I wasn't being inconsistent, just clouded by genuine outrage, and I posted a knee-jerk reaction which was rather too hastily written. I still don't blame ordinary Muslims, but for a more detailed and calmer explanation see my response to Bobnot.

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Youtube video

You can skip to 4.30 for Hitchen's excellent and relevant point

Yes he was a Great man

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes he was a Great man

If he were alive now he would be making some great points but also saying well i did tell you so.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Question for Kirk, during the troubles, were you advocating the closure of free movement between the UK and Ireland, just curious.

No Cherie, but that was a totally different issue to this and I did condemn the slaughter by all parties, and the part played by the British Government at the time.

No Irishman ever proclaimed a mission to conquer any other Western Democratic country and install Roman Catholicsm or Protestantism on the peoples they'd subjugated, and nowhere in the Holy Book that both Irish Irish Protestant and Catholics held sacred did it instruct them to do so.

I was as sickened and angered by Bloody Sunday as I was by any atrocity perpetrated by the sectarians.

[Livia]

A little shocked - but I guess not wholly surprised - to see so much pre-emptive sympathy and empathy going to the "majority of Muslims" while twelve families come to terms with the death of a loved one and try to fit the pieces of their lives back together. The "majority of Muslims" don't stand up to be counted. They worry that they will be targeted with racial abuse in the backlash and then THAT becomes the focus of people's attention, instead of the terrorist atrocity that's just taken place. Maybe people don't truly get what's happening until it affects them directly. Many Muslims do stand up and disassociate terrorists with their religion. Many won't because a proportion of them agree with what's happening. If they didn't there'd be more dobbing in of extremists using mosques.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No Cherie, but that was a totally different issue to this and I did condemn the slaughter by all parties, and the part played by the British Government at the time.

No Irishman ever proclaimed a mission to conquer any other Western Democratic country and install Roman Catholicsm or Protestantism on the peoples they'd subjugated, and nowhere in the Holy Book that both Irish Irish Protestant and Catholics held sacred did it instruct them to do so.

I was as sickened and angered by Bloody Sunday as I was by any atrocity perpetrated by the sectarians.

mmm the whole troubles in the North stuff was less to do with religion and more to do with Ireland being split in two and people either wanting to be British or Irish anyway. It just so happened that "the Irish side" were mainly Catholic and "the British side" mainly Protestant.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

A little shocked - but I guess not wholly surprised - to see so much pre-emptive sympathy and empathy going to the "majority of Muslims" while twelve families come to terms with the death of a loved one and try to fit the pieces of their lives back together. The "majority of Muslims" don't stand up to be counted. They worry that they will be targeted with racial abuse in the backlash and then THAT becomes the focus of people's attention, instead of the terrorist atrocity that's just taken place. Maybe people don't truly get what's happening until it affects them directly. Many Muslims do stand up and disassociate terrorists with their religion. Many won't because a proportion of them agree with what's happening. If they didn't there'd be more dobbing in of extremists using mosques.

Thank you.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

mmm the whole troubles in the North stuff was less to do with religion and more to do with Ireland being split in two and people either wanting to be British or Irish anyway. It just so happened that "the Irish side" were mainly Catholic and "the British side" mainly Protestant.

Thanks Niamh - I wasn't being 'detail' specific, but you're right of course.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

A little shocked - but I guess not wholly surprised - to see so much pre-emptive sympathy and empathy going to the "majority of Muslims" while twelve families come to terms with the death of a loved one and try to fit the pieces of their lives back together. The "majority of Muslims" don't stand up to be counted. They worry that they will be targeted with racial abuse in the backlash and then THAT becomes the focus of people's attention, instead of the terrorist atrocity that's just taken place. Maybe people don't truly get what's happening until it affects them directly. Many Muslims do stand up and disassociate terrorists with their religion. Many won't because a proportion of them agree with what's happening. If they didn't there'd be more dobbing in of extremists using mosques.

In that case it is equally inappropriate to use this tragedy to call for the banning of Muslims into the UK, to state that Mosques should be shut down, and talking up street action against immigrants while twelve families are coming to terms with the death of their loved ones

I strongly reject the notion that distinguishing extremists from ordinary Muslims takes anything away from the sympathy felt for yesterday and today's victims

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In that case it is equally inappropriate to use this tragedy to call for the banning of Muslims into the UK, to state that Mosques should be shut down, and talking up street action against immigrants while twelve families are coming to terms with the death of their loved ones

I strongly reject the notion that distinguishing extremists from ordinary Muslims takes anything away from the sympathy felt for yesterday and today's victims

if you have a club that states that execution is the right and proper punishment for getting out of the club then its not too much of a surprise that this kind of thing happens

The problem lies with the club and its rules and the fictitious nature of its values.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In that case it is equally inappropriate to use this tragedy to call for the banning of Muslims into the UK, to state that Mosques should be shut down, and talking up street action against immigrants while twelve families are coming to terms with the death of their loved ones

I strongly reject the notion that distinguishing extremists from ordinary Muslims takes anything away from the sympathy felt for yesterday and today's victims

I never said I supported banning Muslims entering the UK, the closure of mosques (unless they support extremists, and let's face it, some do) or any other unlawful action. However, when the first reaction of so many people is "oh the poor ordinary Muslims" it's a skewed, in my opinion.

The vast majority of people already know that most Muslims are ordinary, hard-working, law-abiding members of the community and only the very stupidest in our society would target them based simply on their religion. And keeping the focus on ordinary Muslims and worrying about how the stupidest people in society will react IS taking away from the terrorist attrocity by pre-empting the victimisation of innocent Muslims where clearly that isn't happening. I haven't seen twelve Muslims shot dead in Paris. I haven't seen a Muslim hacked to death on the streets of Britain, nor have I seen a mass coming together of Muslims to denounce the action of their brothers and sisters.

[Brother Leon]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

It is a shame... but instead of playing the victim, what a lot of Islamic people need to do is agree that these people give them a bad name. They need to agree that we have to do something about it. But making trends and posting things on the internet like 'not all muslims are bad!!!!!!1111' doesn't help. Anyone with a brain knows that all muslims arent bad. They need to pay respects to the victims and not complain and turn it into a sob story.

(I'm on about internet warriors... not the standard Muslim person. Every Muslim person I know IRL has mentioned how awful this is)

Pretty much anywhere you look, you will find Muslims condemning them. It is also Muslim Men and Women mostly who are battling ISIS face to face and on foot every single day. I think it's Abit rich for us in England to say "Oh, you should condemn them and do more instead of making it a sob story" when they are the ones fighting the spread of isis and we are just posting RIP messages.

--

In an unrelated note, it is annoying how the main victims of Islamist extremism does happen to be Muslims themselves, but it's only a huge issue that needs every Muslim to have to come out and say it is wrong when it occurs in a western nation and it is made out like it is only a problem for the people of Europe/USA.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

Pretty much anywhere you look, you will find Muslims condemning them. It is also Muslim Men and Women mostly who are battling ISIS face to face and on foot every single day. I think it's Abit rich for us in England to say "Oh, you should condemn them and do more instead of making it a sob story" when they are the ones fighting the spread of isis and we are just posting RIP messages.

--

In an unrelated note, it is annoying how the main victims of Islamist extremism does happen to be Muslims themselves, but it's only a huge issue that needs every Muslim to have to come out and say it is wrong when it occurs in a western nation and it is made out like it is only a problem for the people of Europe/USA.

You're right, BL. Many victims of ISIL are Muslim. And many are not. And many Western Muslims condemn atrocities and support the people suffering. And many Western non-Muslims do the same. It's unfair to suggest that people only make a noise about this stuff when it happens in Europe or the US. People of all colours and creeds have been sickened by ISIL's actions in the Middle East and have not been backward in voicing that.

And now the fight is being brought to the streets of European capitals and really, no one is safe. But there is still a general reluctance for Muslims to come forward and condemn what the terrorists do, let alone pass on intelligence that could be helpful to the security services.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In that case it is equally inappropriate to use this tragedy to call for the banning of Muslims into the UK, to state that Mosques should be shut down, and talking up street action against immigrants while twelve families are coming to terms with the death of their loved ones

I strongly reject the notion that distinguishing extremists from ordinary Muslims takes anything away from the sympathy felt for yesterday and today's victims

I have already stated in a response to Bobnot that my post which you commented on, was part knee-jerk reaction and part rushed, and that perhaps I was clouded by outrage and disgust by the atrocities in France and did not perhaps make clear what I meant to say.

What I find astonishing though MTVN, is the numbers of people on here who repeatedly fail to post in condemnation of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists every time they slaughter yet more innocent people, but who will yet post the most angry condemnations of people like myself who do post to condemn the atrocities if they deem us to have been xenophobic or racist, anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant.

Why is that?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Who is the Muslim spokesperson for the UK?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Who is the Muslim spokesperson for the UK?

Dr Shuja Shafi is Secretary General of the Muslim Council. The Muslim Council cannot be faulted - they are always the first organisation to stand up to be counted. It must frustrate them they don't get more support (and more coverage)