[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its hardly a common goal. Russia has been shooting down the very people the west are trying to protect and arm. Russia’s been intent on wiping out our allied rebels since they began flying sorties in Syria. so it’s not as if Western allies attacking Russian allies is some strange new escalation....Its a proxy war that has been raging for weeks.

IS is the common goal, clearly

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

IS is the common goal, clearly

Russia is there for its own interests which include keeping Assad in power. The recent downing of a civilian holiday plane stirred Russian anger towards ISIS but for Russia, ISIS is merely a paper dragon in all of this. Their main targets are those we consider allies.

[Brother Leon]

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

[Kizzy]

Maybe everyone else is like ' hey be careful we don't want to damage the oil!' And Putin is like ' screw the oil!'?

[bots]

Russia has never deviated from its position that it thinks its a bad idea to remove Assad, whatever the motivations.

America, the UK etc tried to be sneaky and force a regime change, something they are not supposed to do, yet were quite happy to try and force anyway, hence their support of opposition forces ... including IS. A few years down the line and they have said ... whoopsie ... shouldn't have enabled IS ... and now they have come to the realisation that there won't be a solution to IS without Assad at the helm. So, that means they now have pretty much the exact same stance as Russia now ... they just don't want to admit it because it shows them up for the fools that they have been

[Z]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

Agreed, and it's farcical that people are calling Russia out for bombing anti-Assad forces when Turkey have been bombing Kurds - neither of them have been focusing on bombing ISIS!

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Maybe everyone else is like ' hey be careful we don't want to damage the oil!' And Putin is like ' screw the oil!'?

And Putin is like 'screw their oil, we have oil!'

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Russia has never deviated from its position that it thinks its a bad idea to remove Assad, whatever the motivations.

America, the UK etc tried to be sneaky and force a regime change, something they are not supposed to do, yet were quite happy to try and force anyway, hence their support of opposition forces ... including IS. A few years down the line and they have said ... whoopsie ... shouldn't have enabled IS ... and now they have come to the realisation that there won't be a solution to IS without Assad at the helm. So, that means they now have pretty much the exact same stance as Russia now ... they just don't want to admit it because it shows them up for the fools that they have been

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

And Putin is like 'screw their oil, we have oil!'

Da!

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

yes, Russia has been consistent in their support for a brutal dictator, i don't see how you can see that as a good thing...The west actually deals with things as they change and evolve and then change their approach accordingly... you know, like all rational people would do.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by lostalex

yes, Russia has been consistent in their support for a brutal dictator, i don't see how you can see that as a good thing...The west actually deals with things as they change and evolve and then change their approach accordingly... you know, like all rational people would do.

Well it's the Russian line that the West have been gradually moving towards, your government included. It was always fanciful to think that tiny bands of 'moderate' rebels would be capable of defeating both IS and the Syrian government and establishing some new democratic state in its place.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well it's the Russian line that the West have been gradually moving towards, your government included. It was always fanciful to think that tiny bands of 'moderate' rebels would be capable of defeating both IS and the Syrian government and establishing some new democratic state in its place.

but there are actually lots of syrians that are fighting for real democracy, they are not ISIS, they are people that truly want democracy. Russia just says "**** them, we like having Assad as a friend".

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if it's even just 20 people who want democracy, it is the US and Nato's job to support them, and i'm proud that we do. When there are people who genuinely want to fight against a brutal dictator, we should support them. Even if it means sometimes we are taken advantage of, and our weapons get into the wrong hands. It;'s not okay to give up on the idea of democracy in the middle east.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by lostalex

but there are actually lots of syrians that are fighting for real democracy, they are not ISIS, they are people that truly want democracy. Russia just says "**** them, we like having Assad as a friend".

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if it's even just 20 people who want democracy, it is the US and Nato's job to support them, and i'm proud that we do. When there are people who genuinely want to fight against a brutal dictator, we should support them. Even if it means sometimes we are taken advantage of, and our weapons get into the wrong hands. It;'s not okay to give up on the idea of democracy in the middle east.

Well the US didn't do a great job when Obama drew his 'red line' over using chemical weapons and then did nothing when Assad crossed that red line. And if the West really cared that much about every government being a democracy then they would have to be fomenting uprisings against half the governments in the world but they don't. Some of our closest allies are counties with brutal governments. And maybe that's just international relations for you. It's almost impossible to have an 'ethical foreign policy' in practice, you've got to deal with the world as it is and not how you want it to be.

The first priority is to defeat ISIS and the Syrian army is the main force capable of doing that in the country. After that can come discussions of a political settlement and whether Assad should have any role in it.

[DemolitionRed]

This link gives yet another indication that Assad's 'war' on ISIS is a sham and that he supports them financially.
http://www.businessinsider.com/revea...is-2015-3?IR=T

The dangers of having so many countries operating in the same area with different agendas and allegiances. The Syrian situation is a mess.

[MTVN]

Good overview of the situation here, will just post an excerpt

The Government agrees that air strikes must be conducted in close partnership with ground forces, if they are to have a decisive impact. But the partners it has in mind are the Iraqi regular army, which is still a wreck after its defeats in 2014 and earlier this year, and the “moderate” armed opposition in Syria, which is so feeble that it barely exists. When the US tried to create one it ended up with just four “moderate” fighters – individual fighters – in Syria at a cost of $500m.

Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil [Isis]”. He did not identify these elusive moderates, but the Syrian armed opposition is dominated by three extreme Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which the most powerful is Isis, followed by the al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham, a hard-line Sunni movement. The one place where moderate and secular rebel groups had some strength was in southern Syria between Damascus and the Jordanian border. But they are in disarray since they launched an offensive in June called “Southern Storm”, which was beaten back by the Syrian army.

In Iraq, Fallon says that we are cooperating with the regular Iraqi army, which he claims is very different from the one that ran away last year. He says that at the time in June 2014, when 3,000 Isis fighters defeated at least 20,000 Iraqi army soldiers and captured Mosul, the Prime Minister of Iraq was Nouri al-Maliki, who ran a highly sectarian Shia-dominated regime. Fallon is encouraged by the fact that he has been replaced by a more inclusive government under Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi. But inside Iraq this new government is seen as even weaker and more dysfunctional than its predecessor. Its main source of authority is its control of Iraq's diminished oil revenues, but otherwise it has little power outside Baghdad. Though heavily supported by US air strikes, its best military units fled Ramadi on 17 May. General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, commented caustically that “Iraqi forces weren't 'driven out' of Ramadi, they drove out on their own”.

[bots]

Even if one goes back to Saddam's time the Iraq army was awful. His "elite" troops surrendered or ran away on mass then. Its just not a good army.

What has gone on in Syria so far would be considered laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

[Kizzy]

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

do you have a problem with moderates?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

it means he expects those moderates to wipe out ISIS. Good luck with that thought is all I will say on it as it will never happen and everyone but the completely stupid knows it. The US and UK have both changed their stance on Assad but to admit that now means admitting they made mistakes, but that's the reality. At some point in the future expect Assad to have miraculously grown a halo where he gains their public support.

[bots]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

------

Does he have a death wish? He is quite clearly wanting conflict with Russia

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

------

Does he have a death wish? He is quite clearly wanting conflict with Russia

He is a ****ing dumb bitch and i have no idea why he is being selected over and over again. Turkey was an amazing country and slugs like him and his religious sheeps ruined the whole country.

I wanna get out of this country. NOW.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MelihV

He is a ****ing dumb bitch and i have no idea why he is being selected over and over again. Turkey was an amazing country and slugs like him and his religious sheeps ruined the whole country.

I wanna get out of this country. NOW.

Hi Meihv, good to see you posting again, even if it is over this bad situation

I really feel for you. I have some Turkish friends who feel exactly as you do. It is such a shame.

Please take care of yourself and your family.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Hi Meihv, good to see you posting again, even if it is over this bad situation

I really feel for you. I have some Turkish friends who feel exactly as you do. It is such a shame.

Please take care of yourself and your family.

Thank you very much for your kind message

I stopped posting because i felt like i was getting more negative here and it is very unfortunate that i left another negative comment today.

I just wish Turkey was the same place when Ataturk ruled the country and brought it to very high levels. Today Turkey is full of hate, everyone is selfish and we are going backwards not forward.

With that in mind i would like to add Russia deserved this because they always invade other country's air borders and thinking they can get away with this.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

The great thing about politics is, we all have the right to change our mind!

I had a day off today and so spent a lot of time looking through sources we aren't privy to unless we dig deep...Yeah I should get a life

Yesterday, I would of disagreed with you. Today I totally agree with you.

[Kizzy]

Thing is Turkey are closer than we are, what do they know that we don't?
America and Russia are fighting the same fight and yet there is still animosity there, Turkey are NATO allies and Putin atm is miffed at the west.
What if these allies that dave wants to aid is Turkey against Russia and not ISIS?