[Alf]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Trump supporters come mainly under the category of white supremacists.

You know them all? You know everything about the lives of the people that are to vote for him?

[the truth]

Tony Benn was a lifelong Christian and the greatest politician of the last 50 years. Lloyd George the greatest politician in the history of the world was a Christian and aneurin bevan , the biggest legend of all was also a Christian. This is just one example of how Jesus changed our country for the better! That's before we consider the FACT Christian Chruches donate 100s of billions for charities across the globe every year, feeding, clothing, educating and saving the lives of millions. No other organisation on the planet even comes close. At the heart of it is the goodness and kindness of these people who want to help, in their heart is Jesus, the man who inspired this all with his words, actions and teachings.

[the truth]

??????????????

[Alf]

If you've not seen it then you should watch The late great Christopher Hitchens one of the greatest orator's of our time take on his equally great debater brother Peter.

They debate Iraq first, then God

The God debate starts at 31.45

Youtube video

[Kizzy]

I like this Christopher ( no pun intended) is cool, his brothers mocking, belittling accusations are expected of one who suggests there is an 'Anglican Jehovah'.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by wannashag

If you've not seen it then you should watch The late great Christopher Hitchens one of the greatest orator's of our time take on his equally great debater brother Peter.

They debate Iraq first, then God

The God debate starts at 31.45

Youtube video

yeah and Christopher raised how much to fund, feed and clothe and educate and house the starving millions? Jesus billions, chris hitchens 0.....Rock on Chris

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

Tony Benn was a lifelong Christian and the greatest politician of the last 50 years. Lloyd George the greatest politician in the history of the world was a Christian and aneurin bevan , the biggest legend of all was also a Christian. This is just one example of how Jesus changed our country for the better! That's before we consider the FACT Christian Chruches donate 100s of billions for charities across the globe every year, feeding, clothing, educating and saving the lives of millions. No other organisation on the planet even comes close. At the heart of it is the goodness and kindness of these people who want to help, in their heart is Jesus, the man who inspired this all with his words, actions and teachings.

The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

[the truth]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;8508174]The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

The vast number of great things they do outnumber every other organization in the history of the planet, theyre also not given credit for it, as we are brainwashed 24/7 with the puerile hate of mainstream media



What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

Good people like Jesus, some love him. Many believe in his morals, ,many take great comfort and wisdom from his words and deeds. Some believe he was the son of God, some believe he may have been, some believe he wasn't but still respected and followed his principles and teachings. Some scoff he was deluded , which is why he has crucified, some scoff and say he didn't exist. There are many billions of people with loads of different views. But nearly all of them agree, the story, the words, the teachings, the life, the morals were revolutionary and the vast vast majority would agree with them and inspire these people and get them together in vast groups for the betterment of the world. That ultimately is imo the most important thing.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

It doesn't matter if it comes naturally or not, as long as people are helping. As well as the people who help aren't just doing so to look good publicly whilst ducking taxes and acting like crooks and thugs when theyre not seen. I don't for a second say Christian people are better than anyone else. I do think because of Jesus they have a better chance to really do great things and change the world. Id even say people with no beliefs in God could take enormous fulfilment from visiting a Christian church, especially if they want to contribute in one of the many ways like missionary or charitable work. Youll meet awesome people and experience things you can only dream of elsewhere

[Alf]

Originally Posted by the truth

yeah and Christopher raised how much to fund, feed and clothe and educate and house the starving millions? Jesus billions, chris hitchens 0.....Rock on Chris

What are you waffling about?

[Z]

They probably exist in one of the dimensions we've yet to discover

[the truth]

Originally Posted by wannashag

What are you waffling about?

wow, great comeback?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by the truth

wow, great comeback?

Come back to what? I just put up a video of a debate about God and you reply to it by saying Jesus has raised billions and Hitchens has raised nothing.

Are you saying because of this reason that that makes Hitchens opinion invalid?

Or was his excellent educated reasoning on the subject a bit to hard to swallow?


Now I'm no Atheist, I think the word is Agnostic what I am. I don't actually believe, but I wont rule out anything because the World is always full of surprises.

Will there be life after death in Heaven? There's only one way to find out and that's dying. So in my opinion it's a death cult.

I'm not against teaching from the bible or any religious book. in fact I think they should be mandatory in Schools, along with other great works of literature through history, maybe than as Human race we could all be more educated on The World.

I didn't stand a chance with the senior School I went to, the only thing I remember doing in History was The JFK assassination (how pathetic is that?). And the only books I remember reading in English were 'A kestrel for a knave' and 'Buddy' so I was never encouraged to read great works of literature, it's just not the thing you did where I'm from. Which is why I'll admit to knowing sweet FA.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

....hmm, I think that's maybe part of it though..(obviously only a part..)..of the emotions with religious beliefs and non beliefs/obviously it's flipping to the 'positive' rather than the 'negative' of 'in the name of religion/evil deeds'...that defensive/type thing from both 'sides' because although a religious belief may make someone aspire to..../the positives in their religion, they have to be that person who would want to aspire to positive/good in the first place, it's the person they are more than anything else and obviously the same with anyone who doesn't have a religious belief, if there is that aspiration then there is that aspiration regardless ..and as we know, also not 'good' people regardless as well...those are extremes though, good and bad, most people/humans I think are a mixture of both and many things...


...I do think that many people would know 'where to start' though/I don't think that the church necessarily is a big factor there but that's only my own personal experience which is less 'church' and more 'community', the community, which does very much apply to personal things/help and awareness within a community so more 'personal' but also applies to things more worldwide as well/a balance of both...and some are religious people and some are not/an equal balance I would say so very much not a religion 'monopoly' thing...I don't agree with more honourable or less honourable though/or ulterior motives etc...only because it doesn't really matter what the reason/motivation to someone who may benefit from 'good' and that's the point really isn't it of 'good' or helping..?..the people whose lives may have been made a difference to...that school in Africa that was so much needed by the children/that medical help etc..?...the importance is that those things happen and whether those things happen and if they do..?..then those people wouldn't really care what the intention/'ulterior motive', would they..I don't really care about 'motives' personally, with something like possible positive differences in people's lives, that's the only thing really that should matter to me...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Why does that matter, though? Why does "we have to respect the beliefs of others and not say anything about it if we think they're wrong" come with caveats that mean it only applies to SOME beliefs and not others? Who gets to decide which belief systems are damaging and which are benign? It's all completely subjective... so, the only sensible option is to say that it's OK to question and disagree with any or none.

Ah, now you make a good point. How can we question or even condemn one and not the other?

[bots]

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....hmm, I think that's maybe part of it though..(obviously only a part..)..of the emotions with religious beliefs and non beliefs/obviously it's flipping to the 'positive' rather than the 'negative' of 'in the name of religion/evil deeds'...that defensive/type thing from both 'sides' because although a religious belief may make someone aspire to..../the positives in their religion, they have to be that person who would want to aspire to positive/good in the first place, it's the person they are more than anything else and obviously the same with anyone who doesn't have a religious belief, if there is that aspiration then there is that aspiration regardless ..and as we know, also not 'good' people regardless as well...those are extremes though, good and bad, most people/humans I think are a mixture of both and many things...


...I do think that many people would know 'where to start' though/I don't think that the church necessarily is a big factor there but that's only my own personal experience which is less 'church' and more 'community', the community, which does very much apply to personal things/help and awareness within a community so more 'personal' but also applies to things more worldwide as well/a balance of both...and some are religious people and some are not/an equal balance I would say so very much not a religion 'monopoly' thing...I don't agree with more honourable or less honourable though/or ulterior motives etc...only because it doesn't really matter what the reason/motivation to someone who may benefit from 'good' and that's the point really isn't it of 'good' or helping..?..the people whose lives may have been made a difference to...that school in Africa that was so much needed by the children/that medical help etc..?...the importance is that those things happen and whether those things happen and if they do..?..then those people wouldn't really care what the intention/'ulterior motive', would they..I don't really care about 'motives' personally, with something like possible positive differences in people's lives, that's the only thing really that should matter to me...

The African Anglican church are along with other Christian fellowships in the prohibition of gay marriage, they aid to maintain their stranglehold.
How can making a positive difference in one persons life at the expense of another be right?
If you don't care about motives are you not intentionally blinkering yourself? I'm sure the church are very happy this delusion is so popular.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9193593.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes the catholic church's no condoms influence in Africa has been a great help...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

Because it's not the majority consensus or the accepted social norm, that sounds a little small minded, are you not simply ignorant to those beliefs?
I have had experience of many branches of the Christian faith and formed an opinion based on that, if you have nothing to base your views on then claiming someone who has a different set of beliefs is a weirdo is nescient.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

who is insulting people personally?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

who is insulting people personally?

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

There are plenty of people who think faeries are real and unicorns, people think Yetis exist and Angels and ghosts.

I see no difference - its believing without proper evidence

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

Who has been insulted, and by whom?
As a believer I'm as offended as you nearly.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

Because it's a fascinating subject that plays a massive part in world history and how the world is shaped today. I won't be told what I am and am not allowed speak about. Why is Father Ted funny? Because it points out massive hypocrisies in organised religion specifically Catholicism

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

Because they don't have blind faith, theological discussions are not simply promoted by those who don't believe I do and I love talking about it.
It solves nothing shutting down debate.