[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Know what I do find sort of telling? No one has any problem whatsoever with speculation surrounding the Stephen Avery "Making a Murderer" stuff, documentaries about it, countless theories, it's all sort of accepted as being fine to have opinions and theories...

...but try to suggest an alternate theory in the Maddie case, or suggest that any of the surrounding events aren't whiter-than-white and above board and could have happened to anyone and oh it's fine to all leave your kids alone, at night, in unlocked apartments, in a foreign country... and you get shot down from all angles. Because Middle Class British Folks! How dare you suggest they are anything other than exemplary parents. You must simply believe the also entirely assumed / guesswork narrative that Maddie was abducted. There is ZERO EVIDENCE that she was abducted by a paedophile. The evidence is that she was left alone in a room, and that she silently disappeared from that room while her siblings were left asleep and unharmed. That's it. That's the whole story, as far as 100% verified evidence goes.

But it's fine to theorise that she was abducted by MI5 trained stealth Gypsy paedophiles... just don't dare theorise that anyone else had anything to do with it

..'sort of telling' of what, I wonder...the two things are not comparable at all...even in disregarding that 'Making a Murderer' was a documentary series, specifically outlining two serious crimes/one of which was a murder and with the sole intent to create speculation and intrigue..because the fist crime, that Stephen was found guilty of in a court of law, he was in fact innocent of...and he still professes innocence to the murder of Teresa, having experienced his 'guilt being manipulated once' by police and a judicial system...(I'm going to assume you meant me when you said that because of the few people involved in that thread, of which I was one of... and I'm not speculating any guilt with the MaCanns, other than their leaving the children alone that night...)...my personal theory was that Stephen killed her, which is the thoughts I gave in the thread, 'my theory' as it were ..Stephen Avery, the person that has been charged and convicted of her murder is the one who is also guilty of it, both in my personal thoughts and presently in the eyes of the law..but whatever speculations and theories anyone concluded from it all, it's what a specific series was aimed at doing/causing because if Stephen didn't kill her, then there is still a murderer out there and free....there was a body/remains of one, so there was a definite murder and a murderer, absolutely no question or doubt at all about that...there is no body here, so there is not necessarily any death, let alone a murder or someone responsible for that death, in the way that many of the public have speculated...what there is, is a disappearance of an unattended child and much obvious interest and speculation about her disappearance....


...very shabby indeed TS, as to what would be 'sort of telling'...or in drawing any comparison at all in the two things...

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..'sort of telling' of what, I wonder...the two things are not comparable at all...even in disregarding that 'Making a Murderer' was a documentary series, specifically outlining two serious crimes/one of which was a murder and with the sole intent to create speculation and intrigue..because the fist crime, that Stephen was found guilty of in a court of law, he was in fact innocent of...and he still professes innocence to the murder of Teresa, having experienced his 'guilt being manipulated once' by police and a judicial system...(I'm going to assume you meant me when you said that because of the few people involved in that thread, of which I was one of... and I'm not speculating any guilt with the MaCanns, other than their leaving the children alone that night...)...my personal theory was that Stephen killed her, which is the thoughts I gave in the thread, 'my theory' as it were ..Stephen Avery, the person that has been charged and convicted of her murder is the one who is also guilty of it, both in my personal thoughts and presently in the eyes of the law..but whatever speculations and theories anyone concluded from it all, it's what a specific series was aimed at doing/causing because if Stephen didn't kill her, then there is still a murderer out there and free....there was a body/remains of one, so there was a definite murder and a murderer, absolutely no question or doubt at all about that...there is no body here, so there is not necessarily any death, let alone a murder or someone responsible for that death, in the way that many of the public have speculated...what there is, is a disappearance of an unattended child and much obvious interest and speculation about her disappearance....


...very shabby indeed TS, as to what would be 'sort of telling'...or in drawing any comparison at all in the two things...

I don't want to speak for TS but what i took him to mean re the Steve Avery case was people were happy to speculate and to suggest that it may have been Teresas brother or ex B/f or Brendans brother and step dad etc, I don't think he was specifically referring to you Ammi just a general observation on how one thing is ok to do but the other is not

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't want to speak for TS but what i took him to mean re the Steve Avery case was people were happy to speculate and to suggest that it may have been Teresas brother or ex B/f or Brendans brother and step dad etc, I don't think he was specifically referring to you Ammi just a general observation on how one thing is ok to do but the other is not

..the two are not comparable at all though because a crime/murder had occurred and a murderer had been charged and sentenced and it was described as an 'unprecedented thriller series' and made to invite theories and speculations etc...I'm not going to divert the thread anymore with Making of a Murderer because it has no connection to any similarities with Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever...and to make any connection at all and relate it to anyone else's opinions was extremely shabby...imo of course...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..the two are not comparable at all though because a crime/murder had occurred and a murderer had been charged and sentenced and it was described as an 'unprecedented thriller series' and made to invite theories and speculations etc...I'm not going to divert the thread anymore with Making of a Murderer because it has no connection to any similarities with Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever...and to make any connection at all and relate it to anyone else's opinions was extremely shabby...imo of course...

Of course it's comparable. A crime was committed (this part is certain in both cases) and people are speculating / debating over what may actually have happened. You say that the difference is that a murderer was charged and sentenced in one case whereas in the other no one has ever been charged and an exact scenario has never even been accepted by the authorities as the true chain of events.

If anything, is it not far LESS appropriate to speculate over a case where a verdict has already been given in a court of law, than on one where literally no one even claims to know exactly what happened? There is no status-quo timeline to accept, other than that "a little girl went missing somehow". It's wide open for speculation... and not much else.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..the two are not comparable at all though because a crime/murder had occurred and a murderer had been charged and sentenced and it was described as an 'unprecedented thriller series' and made to invite theories and speculations etc...I'm not going to divert the thread anymore with Making of a Murderer because it has no connection to any similarities with Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever...and to make any connection at all and relate it to anyone else's opinions was extremely shabby...imo of course...

It doesn't matter though if that's what the documentary wanted from a person, there's plenty of documentaries made too about Maddie McCann, some wanting you to think one way and some wanting you to think another. The difference being that no one actually knows what happened to the victim in the McCann case, nevermind who was responsible (although clearly some of that responsibility lies with her parents regardless of what happened that night imo)

Actually, I was thinking earlier what peoples opinions would be if the scenario was slightly different and instead of Maddie just disappearing without a trace she got up looking for her parents, couldn't find them so went out the unlocked patio door and fell in the pool and drowned while trying to find them. I wonder what peoples opinions on that situation would be? Would they still find the McCanns to be blameless?

[lime]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It doesn't matter though if that's what the documentary wanted from a person, there's plenty of documentaries made too about Maddie McCann, some wanting you to think one way and some wanting you to think another. The difference being that no one actually knows what happened to the victim in the McCann case, nevermind who was responsible (although clearly some of that responsibility lies with her parents regardless of what happened that night imo)

Actually, I was thinking earlier what peoples opinions would be if the scenario was slightly different and instead of Maddie just disappearing without a trace she got up looking for her parents, couldn't find them so went out the unlocked patio door and fell in the pool and drowned while trying to find them. I wonder what peoples opinions on that situation would be? Would they still find the McCanns to be blameless?

totally agree Niamh..I have no idea what happened to this poor child ...what I do know is that she would be safe if it wasn't for the neglect of her parents.I am by no means the perfect parent mine are boys 24,23,20 and an 11yr old girl.I would be sick to my stomach if I was neglectful enough to leave them unsupervised....and then even though Maddie cried to her parents about waking up without them being there ....to carry on being so neglectful is showing me ...something isn't right there

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by lime

totally agree Niamh..I have no idea what happened to this poor child ...what I do know is that she would be safe if it wasn't for the neglect of her parents.I am by no means the perfect parent mine are boys 24,23,20 and an 11yr old girl.I would be sick to my stomach if I was neglectful enough to leave them unsupervised....and then even though Maddie cried to her parents about waking up without them being there ....to carry on being so neglectful is showing me ...something isn't right there

Oh that's a big gap! I bet those are very over protective big brothers

And yeah, I guess, especially after Maddie had told them she woke up and was scared and crying and they still did it after that is what gets me even more than anything. I would be horrified with myself and consumed with guilt for just that incident alone

[lime]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh that's a big gap! I bet those are very over protective big brothers

And yeah, I guess, especially after Maddie had told them she woke up and was scared and crying and they still did it after that is what gets me even more than anything. I would be horrified with myself and consumed with guilt for just that incident alone

yeah ..probalby a little over protective....But you know what as a parent even still when the lads are working away (the two oldest) or when my youngest lad goes away with his mates for the weekend...I still worry about them..so how a parent can sit down and eat a plate of food knowing that these babies were alone in a strange country is beyond me

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't want to speak for TS but what i took him to mean re the Steve Avery case was people were happy to speculate and to suggest that it may have been Teresas brother or ex B/f or Brendans brother and step dad etc, I don't think he was specifically referring to you Ammi just a general observation on how one thing is ok to do but the other is not

That's pretty much it Niamh and no it wasn't directed at Ammi... just generally people getting up-in-arms about any speculation on the McCann case. People generally don't have much problem with speculation over... welll... pretty much anything at all that has a high media profile. But the McCann's seem to get "special consideration" because they are (or were) basically a prefab of "good old English". Two white, middle class, middle England, middle aged, well spoken, well educated doctors. Just two respectable people and wonderful parents (or course, they were middle class doctors!) who were doing absolutely nothing wrong and fell on the wrong side of fate, and on the right side of a Union Jack teacosy.

If it was little Tiffany snatched out of a grubby hotel room in Faliraki while parents Wayne and Candice were out doing shots at the club down the road, they would be absolutely slaughtered in the press, in public chit-chat, and on forums, and far fewer people (if anyone) would be strapping up their ranty-boots to defend them. The reality is, the situation would be exactly the same.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's pretty much it Niamh and no it wasn't directed at Ammi... just generally people getting up-in-arms about any speculation on the McCann case. People generally don't have much problem with speculation over... welll... pretty much anything at all that has a high media profile. But the McCann's seem to get "special consideration" because they are (or were) basically a prefab of "good old English". Two white, middle class, middle England, middle aged, well spoken, well educated doctors. Just two respectable people and wonderful parents (or course, they were middle class doctors!) who were doing absolutely nothing wrong and fell on the wrong side of fate, and on the right side of a Union Jack teacosy.

If it was little Tiffany snatched out of a grubby hotel room in Faliraki while parents Wayne and Candice were out doing shots at the club down the road, they would be absolutely slaughtered in the press, in public chit-chat, and on forums, and far fewer people (if anyone) would be strapping up their ranty-boots to defend them. The reality is, the situation would be exactly the same.

...Making of a Murderer/the Stephen Avery case was never a high media profile case in the UK, I doubt many people had heard of it at all..it was a series, intended to cause the speculation that it caused...it would have pretty much failed, if it hadn't because it was made for 'entertainment' value, like any series...as for the rest of your condescending post, well I personally find that very telling as well...I would very much say that the McCanns have been completely 'slaughtered' in the last nine years, they couldn't really have been anymore slaughtered than they have...

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's pretty much it Niamh and no it wasn't directed at Ammi... just generally people getting up-in-arms about any speculation on the McCann case. People generally don't have much problem with speculation over... welll... pretty much anything at all that has a high media profile. But the McCann's seem to get "special consideration" because they are (or were) basically a prefab of "good old English". Two white, middle class, middle England, middle aged, well spoken, well educated doctors. Just two respectable people and wonderful parents (or course, they were middle class doctors!) who were doing absolutely nothing wrong and fell on the wrong side of fate, and on the right side of a Union Jack teacosy.

If it was little Tiffany snatched out of a grubby hotel room in Faliraki while parents Wayne and Candice were out doing shots at the club down the road, they would be absolutely slaughtered in the press, in public chit-chat, and on forums, and far fewer people (if anyone) would be strapping up their ranty-boots to defend them. The reality is, the situation would be exactly the same.

Totally agree. I also dont think Wayne and Candice would have the connections to contact the media as quicky as the M<cCanns.

[James]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's pretty much it Niamh and no it wasn't directed at Ammi... just generally people getting up-in-arms about any speculation on the McCann case. People generally don't have much problem with speculation over... welll... pretty much anything at all that has a high media profile. But the McCann's seem to get "special consideration" because they are (or were) basically a prefab of "good old English". Two white, middle class, middle England, middle aged, well spoken, well educated doctors. Just two respectable people and wonderful parents (or course, they were middle class doctors!) who were doing absolutely nothing wrong and fell on the wrong side of fate, and on the right side of a Union Jack teacosy.

If it was little Tiffany snatched out of a grubby hotel room in Faliraki while parents Wayne and Candice were out doing shots at the club down the road, they would be absolutely slaughtered in the press, in public chit-chat, and on forums, and far fewer people (if anyone) would be strapping up their ranty-boots to defend them. The reality is, the situation would be exactly the same.

The reactions to the McCanns have gone completely the other way now - they get more criticism for being middle-class.

From Wikipedia:

The couple's middle-class status, at first protective, soon turned into a weapon against them. They were harshly criticized for having left their children alone, despite the availability of Ocean Club babysitters. Seventeen thousand people signed an online petition in June 2007 asking Leicestershire Social Services to investigate. The argument ran that a working-class couple might have faced child-abandonment charges, but a group of doctors on a posh holiday had been let off the hook.[169].....

.....The [Leveson] inquiry heard that the editor of the Daily Express, in particular, had become "obsessed" by the McCanns. Lord Justice Leveson called the Express articles "complete piffle"; Roy Greenslade described them as "a sustained campaign of vitriol."[171] British tabloids would simply repeat Portuguese tabloid stories, which in turn made no mention of sources. "Maddie 'Sold' By Hard-Up McCanns" ran a headline in the Daily Star.[172]

Kate McCann..... came in for particular attention, considered too attractive, too thin, too well-dressed, too intense, too controlled and not mumsy enough, according to media analyst Caroline Bainbridge. Much of the commentary came from female journalists.[173] Several tabloids criticized her for not crying in public, despite her obvious distress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disapp...Media_coverage

http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...tarapologiesto