[Firewire]

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

Like it or not you are British, it's very telling that you wish to distance yourself so definitely from England with regard to your patriotism though
If I were Scottish I may feel the same round about now mind.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Like it or not you are British, it's very telling that you wish to distance yourself so definitely from England with regard to your patriotism though
If I were Scottish I may feel the same round about now mind.

Yes I am

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Yes I am

I'm not bothered where it refers to, just what you consider it to be in general really.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

In what sense?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In what sense?

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.

The British Empire was never wholly English, of course, or even predominantly so. Scotland had its own colonial enterprises before the Act of Union (1707), and afterwards arguably contributed more to their joint imperial project than its southern neighbour. Of course you don’t find the Scots celebrating this much now, as imperialism is no longer generally considered to have been A Good Thing and the idea that they were colonial victims seems a better card to play for a people striving (some of them) for national independence

http://www.historytoday.com/blog/201....VoPjOluu.dpuf

I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.



I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.

Historically as now countries do what the 'kings' of the day want....NOT the people.

* see James V11
* see Thatcher
* see Blair
* see Cameron

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.



I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.

Having lived here for a bit longer than the "recent surge for independence", I can confirm that you are wrong. The empire was indeed a product of Scotland as much as England but that's not relevant as the empire is over; meaning that we now "pick and choose" (loosely, obviously we're talking about sweeping social choice here not conscious individual choice) which parts of culture and history form the overall basis of national identity.

England, whilst it does have a lot of REGIONAL culture and many strong - but notably, distinct - regional identities... It really has no overall unifying sense of national identity OTHER than empire.

It would probably be more accurate to say that there really isn't any strongly defined sense of English culture or English patriotism. Essentially, there is British culture, Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish culture, and then a whole array of various regional English identities ("Londoner", "Yorkshireman", "Geordie" etc) and when English people talk about patriotism, what they really are referring to is British patriotism rather than English patriotism, whilst in Scotland, there are plenty of both Scottish patriots AND British patriots but they do not mean the same thing... And it is British patriotism that is rooted in Empire / Global strength.

Really this is reflective of the overall perception of Britain / British, though. For example, when filling in a form, English people are much more likely to use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably whereas "Scottish" and "British" and certainly "Irish" and "British", are more distinct descriptions.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

Yeah good explanation.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In what sense?

It was two separate points really. I was differentiating patriotism as I can see there being two separate branches of it. Which would be the same for Welsh and Northern Irish people as well, I guess, but as I'm from Scotland I isolated that.

But I essentially mean that Scottish heritage is different to British, so I hold more of a patriotism to Scotland than the UK.

For example, the tradition of ceilidhs, Hogmanay, Robert Burns and kilts, are just some of the things associated with Scottish patriotism if we look at it from a traditional sense. Or we could look at free education, free prescriptions or even landscape. Those are things I would associate with patriotism. I love Scotland even though I'm British. I don't know the British national anthem and I have no desire of learning it. I don't care for the Royals. I like Andy Murray. I don't like football but want Scotland to succeed if they ever play. That's all areas of patriotism.

As someone suggested, it's not about hating England. I love England. But patriotism is more than just being a "fan of the UK".