[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair I don't think Jon charged in feeling invincible, he actually looked pretty sure that he was about to die as the cavalry charged at him, before his own caught up and tackled them.

It was more that Ramsay managed to goad him into losing his ****. Y'know, by impaling his little brother in front of him.

He did 'charge' (metaphorically) into the battle in the first place though by thinking an army half the size could win, thinking he could protect Sansa and thinking he wouldn't get completely outwitted by Ramsey

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

He did 'charge' (metaphorically) into the battle in the first place though by thinking an army half the size could win, thinking he could protect Sansa and thinking he wouldn't get completely outwitted by Ramsey

I don't think he did think they would win though, I think he thought they would most likely die, hence asking not to be brought back again.

The episode covered the differences between the two quite thoroughly though. Jon is a warrior - not a general. His first instinct was to challenge Ramsay one on one confident that he would win... vs Ramsay being smart enough to know that he would probably lose that way and not being goaded into it. Then you have the battle itself - Jon charges in half cocked, is indeed pretty much one of the strongest individual warriors on the field, but has absolutely NO tactics at all. He comes out of it coated in dirt and blood. Ramsay never enters the battle - making tactical decisions from the sidelines and dominating the field until the Knights of the Vale show up.

Then they state it quite explicitly in the "...but Jon Snow is no king" conversation between Tormund and Davos.

What Jon essentially is... is a wildling, with some Stark / Black Watch combat and tactics training.