[user104658]

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

its simple maths which all the tory haters here cant understand

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

the tories have reduced the maximum hours by 19 hours, labour are insane they expect doctors to work 91 hours and they let gp's off the hook totally

its not single rate either that is simply wrong