[arista]

This is her own idea
as the Former PM said No.

http://news.sky.com/story/grammar-sc...sists-10570433

Now many of you may hiss at this,
but its a New Grammar School
that will let the Plebs in , as well

JC of Labour
said he will Vote Block it.


Ammi
its your trade
you know this Works after the 11+


Sign Of The Times

[Livia]

God forbid the more able kids shouldn't be dragged down to the level of the disruptive non-learners. I can't understand why the notion of ability being encouraged is so outrageous to some. And the PM is right to look for an alternative to simply returning to the old model.

[joeysteele]

I don't know, not enough is out as to detail of it yet.

Maybe this will help or be a good thing, maybe not, a lot more needs to be seen as to the content of this plan to really make an informed decision.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't know, not enough is out as to detail of it yet.

Maybe this will help or be a good thing, maybe not, a lot more needs to be seen as to the content of this plan to really make an informed decision.

I agree Joey
Saturday papers
will split on it, of course

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

God forbid the more able kids shouldn't be dragged down to the level of the disruptive non-learners. I can't understand why the notion of ability being encouraged is so outrageous to some. And the PM is right to look for an alternative to simply returning to the old model.

It's that time of year again Livia! When we agree on something .

The most academically able students should be identified and allowed to enter an environment where they can thrive and reach that potential... And the ability to have that happened shouldn't be limited by family income. This seems like pretty basic common sense when it comes to creating a thriving economy.

There are many state schools that are excellent and get it right... In an ideal world this would be true of all schools but in reality... It's just not the case.

I also agree with rewarding ability and am constantly irritated by my daughter's school even at primary school level on that front. She is ahead in everything... But fairly effortlessly. She's inherited my unfortunate laziness. But they don't reward attainment... They reward "effort"... Even if that effort gets bog standard results .

I'd go further and make it more than academic in terms of opportunities... For example, a guy in my woodworking class at school was creating things that were seriously quality, aged 14. I would say genuinely gifted. It came to him effortlessly. Of course he fell through the net dramatically because he wasn't excelling at English / Maths and now I'm pretty sure he's either completely down and out, or dead.

If someone had picked up on that early and allowed him to pursue it his life could have gone in a completely different direction.

[joeysteele]

I cannot help but smile when arista keeps calling Theresa May 'the Lady PM'.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I cannot help but smile when arista keeps calling Theresa May 'the Lady PM'.

It's not what he calls her after hours

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not what he calls her after hours

It sounds nice actually, and horrors of horrors, I am warming to her really.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that time of year again Livia! When we agree on something .

The most academically able students should be identified and allowed to enter an environment where they can thrive and reach that potential... And the ability to have that happened shouldn't be limited by family income. This seems like pretty basic common sense when it comes to creating a thriving economy.

There are many state schools that are excellent and get it right... In an ideal world this would be true of all schools but in reality... It's just not the case.

I also agree with rewarding ability and am constantly irritated by my daughter's school even at primary school level on that front. She is ahead in everything... But fairly effortlessly. She's inherited my unfortunate laziness. But they don't reward attainment... They reward "effort"... Even if that effort gets bog standard results .

I'd go further and make it more than academic in terms of opportunities... For example, a guy in my woodworking class at school was creating things that were seriously quality, aged 14. I would say genuinely gifted. It came to him effortlessly. Of course he fell through the net dramatically because he wasn't excelling at English / Maths and now I'm pretty sure he's either completely down and out, or dead.

If someone had picked up on that early and allowed him to pursue it his life could have gone in a completely different direction.

Bit harsh given you don't know what his life is like, maybe he turned out better than you think I would say my hubby falls into the same bracket...no one had to pick him up..he worked hard and has done very well for himself...this idea that people need to be nurtured at every stage of life and can't take life by the balls without Cs in English and Maths is a bit alien to me if I'm honest.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Bit harsh given you don't know what his life is like, maybe he turned out better than you think I would say my hubby falls into the same bracket...no one had to pick him up..he worked hard and has done very well for himself...this idea that people need to be nurtured at every stage of life and can't take life by the balls without Cs in English and Maths is a bit alien to me if I'm honest.

I doubt your husband does fall into the same bracket; I ran into him on a night out in my home town in my mid 20's and he was a full blown junkie. Genuinely tragic.

I suppose he could have turned it around? But let's be honest, VERY few do from that point.

Anyway, in general I agree with you but that's the point. If people are not academically minded then let them find their talent. Don't force them through arbitrary academic subjects and exams "just because". And likewise if someone's talent IS academic and they have the potential to really excel in formal and further education... Then they should have the opportunity to do so without (frankly) being held back by those who can't keep the same pace, and by arbitrary, low-level targets set by the "average pupil".

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

God forbid the more able kids shouldn't be dragged down to the level of the disruptive non-learners. I can't understand why the notion of ability being encouraged is so outrageous to some. And the PM is right to look for an alternative to simply returning to the old model.

I agree with you on this. Why should bright kids from poorer backgrounds not have the opportunity of a better education if they have ability. The happy crappy doogooders think all kids should be lumped in together and it's fairer but **** the poor bright kid who is being disadvantaged.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that time of year again Livia! When we agree on something .

The most academically able students should be identified and allowed to enter an environment where they can thrive and reach that potential... And the ability to have that happened shouldn't be limited by family income. This seems like pretty basic common sense when it comes to creating a thriving economy.

There are many state schools that are excellent and get it right... In an ideal world this would be true of all schools but in reality... It's just not the case.

I also agree with rewarding ability and am constantly irritated by my daughter's school even at primary school level on that front. She is ahead in everything... But fairly effortlessly. She's inherited my unfortunate laziness. But they don't reward attainment... They reward "effort"... Even if that effort gets bog standard results .

I'd go further and make it more than academic in terms of opportunities... For example, a guy in my woodworking class at school was creating things that were seriously quality, aged 14. I would say genuinely gifted. It came to him effortlessly. Of course he fell through the net dramatically because he wasn't excelling at English / Maths and now I'm pretty sure he's either completely down and out, or dead.

If someone had picked up on that early and allowed him to pursue it his life could have gone in a completely different direction.

You hit the nail on the head with the woodworking guy. There should also be an element of selection in schools where those with non academic abilities are encouraged and the mapping of career paths and apprenticeships worked toward with regard those abilities. Gifts come in all forms and should all be nurtured and valued. I think education could be more tailored and partnerships that could lead to apprenticeships developed.

The other thing desperately needed in secondary schools is rabble control. There is an element who disrupt. They should be removed from the class so others can learn. Take them on a cross country run and get rid some of the excess energy. My own son got his gcse's apart from maths. Maths was the only class he wasnt in an advanced class for and in the average class he couldnt learn because the rabble were too disruptive and the teacher couldn't control them. Six months after he left he achieved a comfortable C in maths at 6th form college because the class had no disruptive element. If kids are acting up or the teacher can't cope they need to come out of the group so the rest can learn. Harsh but true.

[James]

I was listening to a debate on the radio the other day about this, and it annoyed me a bit how some of the contributers dismissed Secondary Modern type education.

Skills like woodworking, metalwork, cookery and gardening, which were brought up as typical examples, are great skills to have. You can be highly creative with those.

I think there is a problem in that MPs and opinion formers like newspaper journalists and other media presenters are generally all people who have benefited personally from an academic education, so they assume it is the best path for everyone, which is not the case.

Even in the Labour party now, most of the MPs are middle-class and university educated.

[Ammi]

...it'll depend on how it's done really, it'll be interesting...how though can it always be said 'in the interests of the children' when these plans are always so conflicting...that just doesn't make sense...it was only 5 seconds ago that academies were going to be phased in for everyone and the sharing of resources and knowledge etc to help those under-achieving schools but with this..?..it's a definite divide again...an 'elite' and a 'non elite'...and ughh, will it be the 11+ exam again...some children do well in exams and some don't but it's not necessarily a reflective of their 'academics' either and just another pressure on what is already a too exam focused structure...and are the schools to be OFSTED tested in the same way because it's obvious that the grammar schools with their 'academic achievers' are going to do well but the comprehensive schools, won't do so well because OFSTED is all achievement based atm in terms of academics and data and such the like....and then obviously, teachers will want to work at the grammar schools for their career, they being the good OFSTED schools so all of the advantages with grammar education and 'slim pickings' for the non grammar...

...families who 'have' will be able to seek private lessons for their children to ensure their grammar school places for their children/to ensure their passing of exams but families who don't have that option available, wont...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it'll depend on how it's done really, it'll be interesting...how though can it always be said 'in the interests of the children' when these plans are always so conflicting...that just doesn't make sense...it was only 5 seconds ago that academies were going to be phased in for everyone and the sharing of resources and knowledge etc to help those under-achieving schools but with this..?..it's a definite divide again...an 'elite' and a 'non elite'...and ughh, will it be the 11+ exam again...some children do well in exams and some don't but it's not necessarily a reflective of their 'academics' either and just another pressure on what is already a too exam focused structure...and are the schools to be OFSTED tested in the same way because it's obvious that the grammar schools with their 'academic achievers' are going to do well but the comprehensive schools, won't do so well because OFSTED is all achievement based atm in terms of academics and data and such the like....and then obviously, teachers will want to work at the grammar schools for their career, they being the good OFSTED schools so all of the advantages with grammar education and 'slim pickings' for the non grammar...

...families who 'have' will be able to seek private lessons for their children to ensure their grammar school places for their children/to ensure their passing of exams but families who don't have that option available, wont...

I have been waiting for your response to this issue.

I agree with all you say and I said earlier I couldn't say if it was a bad or good thing until much more detail is revealed.

Your raise a strong and valid point as to Academies too.

As you rightly say, it will depend on how it is done.

How I wish however that education was not kicked around like a football, chopping and changing here where maybe changes are not needed, one govt doing that, the next dismantling most and doing something else.

I will probably never see this but one day I hope Education is taken out of party politics and done in a consensus way with all main Parties, with plans that last too so that children know what to expect and are able to get on with their duties of learning but Teachers too, get to know where they stand and are able to do their duties too with more certainty, continuity and stability..

Why does politics have to make the Education process so confusing at times and be messed about with so much.

[Livia]

Some kids are academic and should have the chance to flourish with those skills. However, more practical, vocational skills are also really valuable. If everyone in this country was an academic we'd be in trouble. And like I've said before, despite my education and the fact that I am academically inclined, my plumber probably earns more than I do. Everyone is valuable and a quality education in both academic and vocational routes should be in place. Sadly it feels like, if academic kids get to go to grammar school, it means other kids get a second class education and that should not be the case.

[MTVN]

IMO 11 years old is too early to segregate kids on their academic potential and it does create this two tier system where its easy for people to be left behind. There's always this anecdotal evidence of people who have done well out of grammar schools but you never hear from those who suffer from such a system and the vast majority of serious research does not back grammar schools as a way to improve education across the board

I personally live in an area where there is a grammar school very close. I took the 11+ and passed it but decided to go to my local state school instead and never regretted it though I accept that I was very lucky to have such a good state school on my doorstep so May is right that selection does still occur based on location and house prices etc. Also overall I would say I was a pretty late bloomer academically and would never have foreseen where I was at 21 when I was 11. Thats also why I don't think its fair to segregate at that age

[Ammi]

..it was heart-breaking to see the stress and pressure on 6th formers this year with SATS but the 11+ exams (if they're brought back..)..are going to be so much more intense and stressful because of the school placements attached to them as well and the children being aware that they may lose friendships to another school if they don't pass etc and their friends do...it's not just as simple as those 'more academic' either because I've known this system of recent times in places like Kent and parents having extra lessons for their children to ensure they secure their passes, so whichever way it's flipped it leaves those who can't afford at a disadvantage...the OFSTED thing is going to be an issue as well if it's all the same criteria for all schools because grammar schools are obviously going to be graded higher...it's just a mess/the whole system and how it's constantly changing, which can never be in the interest of the children and their education...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Some kids are academic and should have the chance to flourish with those skills. However, more practical, vocational skills are also really valuable. If everyone in this country was an academic we'd be in trouble. And like I've said before, despite my education and the fact that I am academically inclined, my plumber probably earns more than I do. Everyone is valuable and a quality education in both academic and vocational routes should be in place. Sadly it feels like, if academic kids get to go to grammar school, it means other kids get a second class education and that should not be the case.

The problem is for years now a University education has been held up as the Holy Grail, most kids want to go to Uni, 95 per cent of my eldest sons year group went to Uni, and of those that didn't they don't want to study for a "trade", very few want to slog it out on a building site these days, so now after years of pushing kids into Mickey Mouse courses at Uni, they have tried to dissuade kids from going by giving them huge debt, this isn't working so now they have now introduced the C grade in Maths and English, have cut out controlled assessments, so everything hinges on one year end exam, and this year the A to E gradings are changing so kids will be graded from 9 to 1, with tougher exams, basically so only the cream or those who can afford tutoring and extra lessons will be heading to Uni in the future, the whole system is a mess as they continue to chop and change the courses, the exams, what they call the exams, how they grade exams, while parents and kids have to suffer through it all. The rise in adverts for Apprenticeships is no coincidence!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The problem is for years now a University education has been held up as the Holy Grail, most kids want to go to Uni, 95 per cent of my eldest sons year group went to Uni, and of those that didn't they don't want to study for a "trade", very few want to slog it out on a building site these days, so now after years of pushing kids into Mickey Mouse courses at Uni, they have tried to dissuade kids from going by giving them huge debt, this isn't working so now they have now introduced the C grade in Maths and English, have cut out controlled assessments, so everything hinges on one year end exam, and this year the A to E gradings are changing so kids will be graded from 9 to 1, with tougher exams, basically so only the cream or those who can afford tutoring and extra lessons will be heading to Uni in the future, the whole system is a mess as they continue to chop and change the courses, the exams, what they call the exams, how they grade exams, while parents and kids have to suffer through it all. The rise in adverts for Apprenticeships is no coincidence!

..if only they put the resources that they spend on a continuous changing system into the classrooms, eh Cherie...and it's these constant changes which are the main thing that are deterring many from teaching as well...

[Kizzy]

I have to say I'm not 100% against this, however I say 11 is too young for the selection process. I would say is it went back to the junior and high school system where kids went to upper school at 13 that is a perfect age for assessing academic, artistic or practical potential.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..if only they put the resources that they spend on a continuous changing system into the classrooms, eh Cherie...and it's these constant changes which are the main thing that are deterring many from teaching as well...

The A level results were dragged down this year by resits failing to attain the C in Maths/English or both, yet that is being glossed over, the class sizes for this years resits will get bigger as those students resist again alongside those who didn't achieve it this year. as funding is cut yet again, in reality they don't care about those students getting a C grade, just keeping them in the school system until they are 18

[bots]

When I went to university, less than 5% of the population were university educated, and less than 1% did higher degrees. Historically, its not that long ago either.

I'm not saying that having more people university educated now is a bad thing, but I do think the balance and focus of what the country needs in terms of skills has been lost. We claim to have diversity, but it just isn't there.

My feeling is that having a grammar school approach will re-focus the balance a bit, and create diversity. Lets be honest, people tend to excel in the things they are naturally good at, so identifying what a person is good at has to be the focus for a richer and more balanced society.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

God forbid the more able kids shouldn't be dragged down to the level of the disruptive non-learners. I can't understand why the notion of ability being encouraged is so outrageous to some. And the PM is right to look for an alternative to simply returning to the old model.

Is this for primary or secondary schools? The classes in secondary schools here are ability based, not the primary schools though.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

God forbid the more able kids shouldn't be dragged down to the level of the disruptive non-learners. I can't understand why the notion of ability being encouraged is so outrageous to some. And the PM is right to look for an alternative to simply returning to the old model.

My young nephew started grammar school this week and I have to say I am so proud of him as are his parents,I can't see why kids who do well should not be encouraged we need to encourage kids ability.I agree Livia.