[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am actually searching for legal definition of woman and all I can find is 'WOMEN, persons. In its most enlarged sense, this word signifies all the females of the human species; but in a more restricted sense, it means all such females who have arrived at the age of puberty.'

Scientifically this is the case also.

Dictionaries need to be updated also (1 a : a female person : a woman or a girl b : an individual that bears young or produces large usually immobile gametes (as eggs) that are fertilized by small usually motile gametes of a male.= apparently...), and surely the word woman should be done away with entirely if there is not actually a clear definition of what a woman (or man) is anymore?

I don't think the word needs to be done away with, or that the definition has even changed that much. Everyone who has always been considered a woman still is ie. people who were born biologically as female, it's just that it now also includes people who have transitioned. (In terms of 'definition' I'm basing this new inclusion on the Gender Recognition Act)

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

its a sensationalised claim that was being made though really. Quite rightly, someone who changes sex shouldn't be re-evaluated for a role purely on that basis, but equally, its a bit of a stretch to suggest that its a major breakthrough for women, when it really isn't.

I agree with that, but reading the articles I don't think it really is being. I know there's excerpts that are saying as much, and maybe it's sensationalised more than it needs to be (but then doesn't the media do that with everything?) but they all seem to be making it perfectly clear in the headlines and throughout the articles that the person being referred to is transsexual.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I don't think the word needs to be done away with, or that the definition has even changed that much. Everyone who has always been considered a woman still is ie. people who were born biologically as female, it's just that it now also includes people who have transitioned. (In terms of 'definition' I'm basing this new inclusion on the Gender Recognition Act)

Oh if we are talking of those who have actually transitioned I agree that they should be classed as women. Thought we were talking about the self identifiers who reckon shoving on a dress and liking makeup makes you a woman rather than a non-gender conforming male.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Oh if we are talking of those who have actually transitioned I agree that they should be classed as women. Thought we were talking about the self identifiers who reckon shoving on a dress and liking makeup makes you a woman rather than a non-gender conforming male.

To complicate it though 'transitioned' doesn't necessarily mean they've undergone sex reassignment surgery. But then it also doesn't mean that people who don't have the surgery are just non-gender conforming males who like to dress/act like a woman. There's loads of reasons why someone might not want/be able to/be allowed to have the surgeries, but still consider themselves, and be considered to be a woman, and have their legal status changed.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

To complicate it though 'transitioned' doesn't necessarily mean they've undergone sex reassignment surgery. But then it also doesn't mean that people who don't have the surgery are just non-gender conforming males who like to dress/act like a woman. There's loads of reasons why someone might not want/be able to/be allowed to have the surgeries, but still consider themselves, and be considered to be a woman, and have their legal status changed.

Legal status is only changed though once you have 'lived as woman' (whatever than means :S) for 2 years right? Just from looking at the government website. So technically, Livia was right in saying Chloe is not a woman, and fact. As Chloe has only just begun 'living as a woman' after being caught crossdressing. And its only 'fact' (though some would still dispute this) legally after she has been doing this for 2 years or more and intends to forever. Also..apparently you need to be diagnosed with 'gender dysphoria'

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Legal status is only changed though once you have 'lived as woman' (whatever than means :S) for 2 years right? Just from looking at the government website. So technically, Livia was right in saying Chloe is not a woman, and fact. As Chloe has only just begun 'living as a woman' after being caught crossdressing. And its only 'fact' (though some would still dispute this) legally after she has been doing this for 2 years or more and intends to forever. Also..apparently you need to be diagnosed with 'gender dysphoria'

I'm not sure I'd need to look over all the details again, but just on Livia's comment, it was being directed at all transsexuals and saying they aren't women based on chromosomes, which is what I was picking up on.