[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

A good try by you again Kirk to twist words and jump in at me again too, I actually said talking about myself,I saw myself as a human being,then added just one of many of the whole human race.

I said no one else was not a member of the human race but there you go.

Odd how you too, have chosen to join in and jump on my post while I was only agreeing with another who you totally ignored the comment of.
I am not playing your games Kirk.
I have sent my post to the mods myself.

I responded to a post on a forum Joey, and was not; 'jumping in at you again' - whatever that is meant to imply - nor was I 'playing games'.

Jet made the following post:

"Reading through these threads on the immigrants situation it's pretty clear than Isis haven't just killed people, their activities have also killed our humanity and compassion. I rarely post in these types of threads, as I would be banned within a few days..."

I believe that the meaning of Jet's post is very clear; she is disgusted and angry, that, in her opinion, some members have expressed little sympathy and compassion for the plight of the unfortunate people living in the camps at Calais, and she gives the former as reasons why she does not post very often in 'these type of threads' because she fears that she would quickly get banned - probably for becoming embroiled in 'personal' argument with those members she refers to - members who do not hold the same opinions as she does.

Jet does not say that certain members should NOT hold such opinions - just intimates that she is disgusted and angry that they do - which is her prerogative.

You open your response post to Jet with:

"Well said Jet and I mean that 100%"

Which can only mean that you too, feel exactly the same way.

However, where Jet does not expound on what she is saying, you actually continue Joey:

"I have been off for a few weeks really with family matters.
Serious debates was an area I loved to not only participate in but read too.
Not so now.

My only contribution now to this and likely some abuse will flow from this statement,comes from how I am, think and feel."

Thus, you clearly link the members who are perceived as dispassionate and unsympathetic to the plight of those camped at Calais, to the demise of Serious Debates and the reason why you no longer love to participate in, or even read, Serious Debates.

Whether in the subtext or otherwise, this is a CLEAR and UNEQUIVOCAL statement from you, that ANYONE who does NOT HOLD your views on Illegal Immigrants and the Calais Camps, are contemptible and to blame for impairing the quality of debate on Serious Debates.

What is more, you stamp those same members of being more than likely of subjecting you to abuse simply for posting your views, but this is not the case Joey, because only two members - BOTS and myself - have responded to you, and neither of us have abused you, we have just stated facts and challenged some of your contentions.

I have found that it is the members who do not conform to the 'general consensus of opinion' here on Tibb, that are more likely to suffer irrational abuse for posting their views.

Incidentally Joey – the statements of ALL member's contributions to Serious Debates also 'comes from how they are, think and feel' – or ought to.

“I hope I never change how I have come to think and feel as to migrants,refugees and anything that involves people.

I see myself as a human being, just one of many of the whole human race.

Whether fleeing persecution, war,famine and /or fleeing for their lives,I see all doing so as other equal human beings.
Reaching out and helping in their dire need is what I would always hope I would try to do and what those with power would do.”

Nothing at all to object to in the above Joey, and I would hazard a guess that everyone on Tibb feels exactly the same way.

However, it is the next from you – when taking in the context of the thread title and subject matter, in addition to everything else which you have written – which I find arrogantly presumptuous, very judgemental and very very unfair to those of us on here who have a different viewpoint on the Calais camps and Illegal Immigration in general, because you are clearly indicting us of (adversely) judging the Calais camp immigrants, deriding them, and condemning them:

“Adult or child,if other humans have any need or fear at all, hope and security is what they should be able to find, not judgement, derision and condemnation.”

You cannot claim any 'Moral High Ground' Joey and look down upon the rest of us just because we do not extend the 'Welcome No Questions Asked Mat' to ALL immigrants – Economic especially.

As BOTS said; none of us would seek to turn away GENUINE refugees who are in need of a safe haven and succour, and it is offensive to me anyway, if not the others who share my views, that because we regard the 'refugee' status of the majority of those who are camped at Calais as 'suspect', we are being accused of the above traits.

It is totally illogical, and absolutely dangerously unrealistic, to want to let anyone into this country – unscreened – just because they state a DESIRE to enter the UK, even if their plight may be relatively desperate, when they are, under the law – Illegal Immigrants.

Extend that non-logic to other areas of life;

The drug addict living in a squat who WANTS to shoplift £200 worth of goods from the local ASDA to sell to fund his heroin habit.

He is desperate and destitute and living in abject squalor.

Should we allow him to shoplift and SATISFY his DEMANDS and DESIRES purely because of his plight?

(Coincidentally, the plight of both the hypothetical drug addict, and the people in the Calais camps are self-inflicted)

There are Laws and a system (as flawed and ineffectual as it is) concerning Immigrants and Refugees, and those people in the Calais camps have not only been classified as non-refugees and potential Illegal Immigrants, but - as Cherie has pointed out - for every Calais camp immigrant who is allowed into the UK, it is at the cost of a GENUINE refugee.

I am not – of course – referring to unaccompanied children, who are but a minuscule minority, and who SHOULD be taken in by us even it means making an exceptional case for them and flouting our own laws.

[Cherie]

I can't understand why people would be turned off serious debates by people holding different views, if we all held the same view there would be nothing to debate, it's interesting to read others views, sometimes it makes you think about things from a different angle, and that not everything is black and white, sometimes I find myself agreeing with people who hold views I don't normally agree with, and vice versa, neither do I get the argument that I can't say what I feel or I will end up banned, as long as you express your views without insulting members then there should be no issue. Let's hear your thoughts Jet it might give us all another angle to look at. From this thread all I can gather is that we all want to see help given but in some cases members feel the help should be targeted at those most in danger and in need

PS I always assumed Jet was male ...

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the avatar changes

Oh bit weird they are all back, Johnny was Norma for a bit

You got the failed website load where all the images move around tibb then? lol I think it's a bug on here.
If i was gonna be a Norma Cherie it would be Norma Bates!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I can't understand why people would be turned off serious debates by people holding different views, if we all held the same view there would be nothing to debate, it's interesting to read others views, sometimes it makes you think about things from a different angle, and that not everything is black and white, sometimes I find myself agreeing with people who hold views I don't normally agree with, and vice versa, neither do I get the argument that I can't say what I feel or I will end up banned, as long as you express your views without insulting members then there should be no issue. Let's hear your thoughts Jet it might give us all another angle to look at. From this thread all I can gather is that we all want to see help given but in some cases members feel the help should be targeted at those most in danger and in need

PS I always assumed Jet was male ...

Another great post Cherie from the Queen of Common Sense.

As for Jet 'She' might be a 'He', in which case I apologise. I think I assumed Jet was female because of some subconscious thoughts of 'Jet' the Gladiator.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

You got the failed website load where all the images move around tibb then? lol I think it's a bug on here.
If i was gonna be a Norma Cherie it would be Norma Bates!

There's a lot on here who associate you with Norma's son - Master Bates.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There's a lot on here who associate you with Norma's son - Master Bates.

[joeysteele]

Really Kirk you are totally again distorting my post and words to suit yourself, as you have done before.
Even having your posts removed in the past that have done that too.
Although none ever being reported by myself,it just being done.

All I expressed is my view,my feelings, what else should I express and not in a nasty fashion either like you and others have done towards me.

You put people down in a subtle way and do get at them, even when they have attempted to close the issue,as I tried to.
I told you last night I was 'not' going to play your games and that I had sent my post to the mods myself.
Yet here today again, you continue to badger me on this issue.

You have near totally distorted my words and post.
I am not going to give you the satisfaction of a further breakdown as to how you have done that, as doing so would only lead to you again coming back at me again, with likely the handclapping from your following.

However one thing I have to point out,you state what I said could do things for my popularity.
You used the term 'your popularity' directly to me personally,that was a singular jibe at me.
I care not a jot about popularity, I do nothing on here to set myself up as better than anyone else or attract anyone else.
I am no better or worse than anyone else but I am just as good as anyone else.

I am simply me, not in the face of people constantly on or off here.just a member expressing his thoughts, his feelings and how I would like the World to be.
I was not even just talking about England either, I was talking about the World and the whole human race.

You however choose to get at me again,( after I made a direct response only to jet),yes to me again, and that is what you do Kirk, and have for some time now.
Also just for your information, as jet is a friend of mine on tibb,I doubt he would mind if I inform you, that jet is male not female.

I have submitted my original post to the mods myself,my response to what jet said and in which I explained to jet my own thoughts and feelings only.
You and others certainly have every right to disagree with what I say but not to constantly choose my posts to keep responding to and get at what I say,analysing every word and distorting what I say too, to maybe try to force further responses back to you again from me, which would then allow you to open the door to more of your nit picking and twisting more words said.
Making unfair criticisms in the process too towards me as to what your distortion of what I said.

In fact it is a mystery to me why you would even in any way identify yourself in the first place as to any thing you perceive to be negative in my post,which I deny totally that there is, as it was only my own personal view and feelings on an ongoing tragedy in the World.
I no way ever mentioned anyone singularly, either 'on' or even 'off' TIBB actually.
I also now too, to avoid problems for myself, rarely 'initially' if ever, respond to you directly on your posts anyway either unlike often yourself towards mine.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Really Kirk you are totally again distorting my post and words to suit yourself, as you have done before.
Even having your posts removed in the past that have done that too.
Although none ever being reported by myself,it just being done.

All I expressed is my view,my feelings, what else should I express and not in a nasty fashion either like you and others have done towards me.

You put people down in a subtle way and do get at them, even when they have attempted to close the issue,as I tried to.
I told you last night I was 'not' going to play your games and that I had sent my post to the mods myself.
Yet here today again, you continue to badger me on this issue.

You have near totally distorted my words and post.
I am not going to give you the satisfaction of a further breakdown as to how you have done that, as doing so would only lead to you again coming back at me again, with likely the handclapping from your following.

However one thing I have to point out,you state what I said could do things for my popularity.
You used the term 'your popularity' directly to me personally,that was a singular jibe at me.
I care not a jot about popularity, I do nothing on here to set myself up as better than anyone else or attract anyone else.
I am no better or worse than anyone else but I am just as good as anyone else.

I am simply me, not in the face of people constantly on or off here.just a member expressing his thoughts, his feelings and how I would like the World to be.
I was not even just talking about England either, I was talking about the World and the whole human race.

You however choose to get at me again,( after I made a direct response only to jet),yes to me again, and that is what you do Kirk, and have for some time now.
Also just for your information, as jet is a friend of mine on tibb,I doubt he would mind if I inform you, that jet is male not female.

I have submitted my original post to the mods myself,my response to what jet said and in which I explained to jet my own thoughts and feelings only.
You and others certainly have every right to disagree with what I say but not to constantly choose my posts to keep responding to and get at what I say,analysing every word and distorting what I say too, to maybe try to force further responses back to you again from me, which would then allow you to open the door to more of your nit picking and twisting more words said.
Making unfair criticisms in the process too towards me as to what your distortion of what I said.

In fact it is a mystery to me why you would even in any way identify yourself in the first place as to any thing you perceive to be negative in my post,which I deny totally that there is, as it was only my own personal view and feelings on an ongoing tragedy in the World.
I no way ever mentioned anyone singularly, either 'on' or even 'off' TIBB actually.

Joey - I responded to your post to explain just why I - and others - took umbrage at to what we perceived you to be saying in it.

I was not, and am not 'badgering' you.

Nor have I been 'nasty' in my exchanges with you - nor has any other member as far as I can honestly see.

I have already explained in detail my 'popularity' comments in detail, and at length in my response to Ammi, so - again - I do not understand your complaints about this.

I have had perfectly innocuous posts removed Joey as well - for reasons only known to the Mods, but that issue has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I really feel a sense with you Joey, that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and imagining injury where there is none.

This is my last word on this because it is frankly futile to continue.

Incidentally, I was among the very first to welcome you back onto the forum.

[arista]

No fella
its your problem - you let Them stay to long there.

[jet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well said jet and I mean that 100%.

I have been off for a few weeks really with family matters.
Serious debates was an area I loved to not only participate in but read too.
Not so now.

My only contribution now to this and likely some abuse will flow from this statement,comes from how I am, think and feel.
I hope I never change how I have come to think and feel as to migrants,refugees and anything that involves people.

I see myself as a human being, just one of many of the whole human race.

Whether fleeing persecution, war,famine and /or fleeing for their lives,I see all doing so as other equal human beings.
Reaching out and helping in their dire need is what I would always hope I would try to do and what those with power would do.

Adult or child,if other humans have any need or fear at all, hope and security is what they should be able to find, not judgement, derision and condemnation.

I totally agree Joey.
I am sorry that you don’t post in here as often as you did previously as I find your contributions so interesting and well thought out. I purposely seek them out and Ammi’s (and others) too to read your takes on certain subjects as I can be sure of finding common sense and decency even if I don’t always agree with every word.
I am also sorry that your reply to me was over - analysed and taken as some kind of insult and I am a loss as to why, but I assume you expected such as you mentioned ‘some abuse’ may be forthcoming.
I am clueless about the inside politics of this forum and who is on whose ‘side’ or whatever, or if any individual is indeed ON any side, but these things obviously go on and is the main reason I rarely post in serious debates, I can’t be bothered with that BS as sooner or later you’ll get drawn into it if you feel very passionately about certain subjects. I prefer to stick to the ‘lighter’ forums where you can be at loggerheads with a poster and then forget all about it and even who you were arguing with or what it was about when the next ‘on season’ rolls around.
I know myself that I get too fired up about some of the stuff in this section. In other words, I don’t like the heat, so I don’t go in the kitchen.
But please Joey, keep using your voice. Your passion and commitment to what you believe in is a great asset to this forum.

[jet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Another great post Cherie from the Queen of Common Sense.

As for Jet 'She' might be a 'He', in which case I apologise. I think I assumed Jet was female because of some subconscious thoughts of 'Jet' the Gladiator.

Kirk...I enjoy reading your posts too. I find you go into a good bit of detail and bring up things that make you think about aspects of a subject that didn’t occur to you previously. But that can also mean you can over analyse sometimes - in my humble opinion - which I feel you did with Joey’s posts and I don’t want Joey pushed further away from this section of the forum by his posts being unfairly misinterpreted (which I believe happened in this case) so take heed or I’ll give you this

[Cherie]

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

[Cherie]

Love you Kirk, I might hate you tomorrow though

[bots]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

[jet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

Of course Cherie. But jabbing away at someone (Joey) and reading too much into his words isn't debate. It's not really debating the issue in question, it's denigrating the person themselves to some degree, two very different things...
My word, I've had my arguments with Joey. Biggies. We are both passionate in what we feel, but we always move on eventually and there are few people I respect and admire here more than I do him because I 'get' him - and it certainly isn't because I agree with him all the time or because he courts popularity any more than I do. Sycophancy turns my stomach.
As much as I like to read and often enjoy what Kirk has to say too (sorry for referring to you Kirk here but I'm replying to Cherie who mentioned you in her post), with all due respect I feel he was out of line concerning Joey on this one.
My, I've had 2 of the longest posts I've ever made in the serious stuff in Serious Debates today. Enough! Bye.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...while I don't disagree with what you say Jenny, I guess the way I see it is that funding doesn't appear to go to those things anyway...it didn't appear to before the Calais situation and it hasn't since..that's the thing, we don't have any say in where these things are focused/government money and our taxes...it's never seemed to be any sort of 'either/or' situation to me...money isn't spent where it should be spent..(or where I personally think anyway..)...not nearly enough invested into a bursting at the seams NHS, virtually nothing into mental health of either adults or children...the homelessness not being addressed..in fact the homeless being fined and penalised for being homeless.../I mean how crazy is that and no addressing of these things sufficiently whether the Calais situation exists or not...those people are there though, they're there now and it has to be addressed that they're there because it's basically being ignored in the hope that it'll all just go away and not exist, but it won't will it...and countries passing the buck of responsibility is just avoidance, just get down to the job and sort it out..these are human beings and there but with the grace of God, they could be anyone of us....

I agree wholeheartedly with you Ammi, but what puzzles me is that the people at Calais are already in a free country. Why the urgent need to cross the channel? Could it simply be that Britain is a softer touch than other European countries?
Also why Europe? Other middle eastern countries should be far more welcoming to fellow muslims surely?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

I agree wholeheartedly with you Ammi, but what puzzles me is that the people at Calais are already in a free country. Why the urgent need to cross the channel? Could it simply be that Britain is a softer touch than other European countries?
Also why Europe? Other middle eastern countries should be far more welcoming to fellow muslims surely?

...(my thoughts Jenny..)...is it's just one of those situations that governments/countries haven't want to address or address sufficiently enough so hence the crisis and how it has grown.../just the usual passing the buck of responsibility...well, we've done a bit so now you and well we've done a bit now also.../human lives being passed around in the parcel as it were...I'm sure there are outbursts of hostility as well because I can't imagine the emotions of negativity in having to live day in and day out and month in and month out in such conditions as the migrant camps, it would be hard to keep any type of positivity going and yet some do but those aren't the ones who the media focus on though.../they show the emotions of extreme frustrations with how they're living and say ....LOOK HOW AWFUL THESE PEOPLE ARE...and the people who print these things, how would they be if they were in that situation and living like that.../would they be docile and smiling..?../just ridiculous....

...anyways, as to reasons Jenny..?...it's hard to say because I don't think these things are one size fits all...but many do have some English so maybe the language comes into play, maybe having relatives/friends...maybe feeling the work opportunities could be better here... or just a vision in a head that feels, England a welcoming people and great place and offering something that other countries don't...I guess that people speak about putting the great back into Britain for a reason and maybe we have a far reaching reputation for our greatness as a nation...

[Ammi]

...also Jet...always good to see your lovely face in any section of the forum and at any time....

[MrJack]

Originally Posted by Samm

all those poor people

If they'd have claimed asylum, they wouldn't be in the camps. No-one else's fault they were waiting to break into Britain.

[Ammi]

..as much as I love France and the French people, it's one of my favourite places in the world....boy of boy does the French officialdom know bureaucracy...no one throws their hands in the air quite like the French..and dealing with something like this which has become a real crisis...?.Lord oh Lord, how those French heads must have hurt...we're their neighbour and an equal part of the joining of the two countries/an equal part of the uniting so we should be helping out to the maximum that we can..and the feeling I get is that we're more helping to the minimum requirement that would fulfil the quota of saying, ok we've done our bit/are doing our bit so that's that...(and the maximum being still using caution as well...)...we can have both I think...humanity and caution...

[Ammi]

..I just think as people, we roll over too easily and so compliantly to our government ..(and this is all governments worldwide I would think..)..when the propaganda scare factor is brought into play in manipulation of our fears...they say they can't sustain and can't do more than they're doing...ok then fair enough if you say so, we trust you...but without that propaganda of manipulation on other things that we feel are wrong...we kick and we scream and we shout in demonstration and say screw you government...


..all of the money that has been spent in making schools into academies because that was the thing of the moment and our children's future...?...now it's grammar schools, so was all of that pointless and unnecessary spending..?..being told when you have a child/a family who desperately needs help/that are at breaking point..that sorry, no mental health care available today, maybe when something awful happens, we'll put you on our desk for consideration...this was never an 'either/or' deal of 'helping our own' and solving our own problems, that's the thing... Britain closing the door on everyone, where is the Great in that...we want to Brexit and get it back..?...well do something and get it back then...

[Kizzy]

No chance Ammi that won't happen the NIMBYs are conditioned, practically institutionalised, that is what Britain feels like to me these days.. some cold hard sanatorium :/
I recommend a film, 'I, Daniel Blake' about the state of the nation...something has to change, we need an attitudinal shift, and it's not left or right it's deeper than that something needs to change at a base level.
Too many are subscribing to a meritocracy and that goes against any 'moral compass' so many profess to live by.

[arista]

This Morning
many are now getting in long lines
for Children, Adults and Unwell.

http://news.sky.com/story/live-mass-...ungle-10630442

Massive amount of Police are there
of course.

Also tonight on BBC1 Panorama
M&S clothes
are being made in Turkey
by Syria children?

[Kizzy]

A live link

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...fugees-migrant

[Kizzy]

Two Afghan men who had spent several months in the squalid Calais camp, and years travelling, had now decided to go home to Jalalabad. They were awake before dawn and carrying the few possessions they had to register at the vast hanger. France has temporarily increased the aid to people wanting to make the journey home to their countries. Muhammad, 26, said: “I’ve tried. I’ve taken so many risks trying to get on the back of lorries. Better to die in my own country than here under a truck.”


No words ...