[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Finally, the penny drops ...thank feck.

Transparency, that's what we want.

But it's going to make zero difference other than possibly a worse deal.
It doesn't matter what's said in parliament because when it comes down to the nitty gritty,when we negotiate with 27 other countries we'll end up with whatever we end up with.Parliament can chat about it until they're blue in the face and it won't help anyone.It will only weaken the country's position.

[the truth]

absurd they are having a vote on it. the eu is a disaster its bankrupt its corrupt its anti democratic its a corporate tool , period. everytime someone votes out, they get to re vote ....in the words of maggie thatcher milk snatcher NO NO NO

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But it's going to make zero difference other than possibly a worse deal.
It doesn't matter what's said in parliament because when it comes down to the nitty gritty,when we negotiate with 27 other countries we'll end up with whatever we end up with.Parliament can chat about it until they're blue in the face and it won't help anyone.It will only weaken the country's position.

Why would it... All it would mean would be that all 27 countries governing bodies would know more than our own parliament... How is that what anyone wanted?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Finally, the penny drops ...thank feck.

Transparency, that's what we want.

That's not true. it's a point scoring exercise and a desperate attempt to slow or halt Brexit. All the politicians baying for their say are playing politics and trying to undermine the government's position and any bargaining will be messed up. It's pretty dumb and it's going to alienate people from parliament further.

On the bright side it makes any further Scottish referendum pointless and unviable.

I just hope if it ruins any negotiation that it will force hard brexit.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Adam.

so basically the voters dont have a voice

Got it in one Adam. We have all the trappings of living in a democracy, without actually living in a democracy.

[Shaun]

Oh like anyone knew what they were actually voting for

[Maru]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

Got it in one Adam. We have all the trappings of living in a democracy, without actually living in a democracy.

That's strange too to see as an American... It feels like our countries are so similar. Though I'd say as of late, the strengths of democracy have certainly been under test... there's people here that don't realize that some of the solutions they are proposing (out of convenience) are anti-democratic. The internet has helped to change that narrative too.

I would be really frustrated if I were a voter. I can live with the result of our election, as long as it's the people's voice that's been heard. No system is perfect and though I may not agree with the outcome of our primaries either, the system worked as intended... now it's up to the people to live with the consequences. Sometimes that's the only way to grow as a nation...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

Got it in one Adam. We have all the trappings of living in a democracy, without actually living in a democracy.

..yeah I don't think there is such a thing as a true and complete democracy, Jenny...we have our vote as in remain/brexit for instance but once that vote is given and once the votes have determined then it's not down to us or anyone other than the government to implement and decide etc...we're always dependants once our votes are given...it's a shame that Ikea didn't do a big round table, big enough for us all to sit around and all decide the 'hows' together and be part of all decisions...we could team build and bond just putting the table together, that would take around 7 years anyway...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's not true. it's a point scoring exercise and a desperate attempt to slow or halt Brexit. All the politicians baying for their say are playing politics and trying to undermine the government's position and any bargaining will be messed up. It's pretty dumb and it's going to alienate people from parliament further.

On the bright side it makes any further Scottish referendum pointless and unviable.

I just hope if it ruins any negotiation that it will force hard brexit.

It certainly seems that way as putting it through parliament will have no actual benefit to us as a country.Specially not those who want to remain in the single market i.e 'soft Bexit'.It does seem like a bunch of sour grapes.A way to vent some frustration at the result of June 23rd.
It's kind of poetic justice if you think about it.Remainers are the main proponents of 'soft Brexit' and a group of remainers have just gone to court and possibly just ruined their chances of getting a soft Brexit.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

I do not want to put anything
In your mouth

[Crimson Dynamo]

The legal action which resulted in the High Court ruling was brought by a wealthy City investment manager, Gina Miller, and a hairdresser, Deir Dos Santos, about whom little is known and who is described as a British citizen of Brazilian origin.

Mrs Miller, married to a multi-millionaire hedge fund manager, is fronting for an outfit calling itself People’s Challenge — set up by an expat, Grahame Pigney, who lives in Carcassonne, France, and a Gilbraltarian government employee.

The action is also supported by something called Fair Deal for Expats, whose leading lights include a British company director who lives in Limoges, France; a businessman who runs a holiday rentals business in Italy; and an English language teacher in Hamburg, Germany.

They claim not to be trying to overturn the result, simply to ensure that Parliament controls the process.

We have entered a Looking Glass world in which — to paraphrase Humpty Dumpty — referendum results mean exactly what lawyers and judges decide they mean.

Outside the court, David Greene, lawyer for Deir Dos Santos, delivered the following statement, which defies satire: ‘We are the democrats here, not the Government.’

Who voted for him?




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...ITTLEJOHN.html

[Braden]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Oh like anyone knew what they were actually voting for

I'm so glad someone said this

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Oh like anyone knew what they were actually voting for

you could say that for every general election ever held in the UK

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah I don't think there is such a thing as a true and complete democracy, Jenny...we have our vote as in remain/brexit for instance but once that vote is given and once the votes have determined then it's not down to us or anyone other than the government to implement and decide etc...we're always dependants once our votes are given...it's a shame that Ikea didn't do a big round table, big enough for us all to sit around and all decide the 'hows' together and be part of all decisions...we could team build and bond just putting the table together, that would take around 7 years anyway...

The problem with a big round table discussion, is like one of the problems of the EU itself. You end up with too many people involved in a negotiation and very little actually being achieved. It's a bit like that old adage too many cook spoil the brew!
I wonder how long in the putting the table together process it would be before started throwing bits at each other!

In the instance of the referendum I would have thought it perfectly reasonable to let the government in power go ahead, initiate, find out what's on the table and then tell the rest of us what's on offer. It seems bizarre to me that we had a vote by Parliament to give us a referendum, took the vote, made a decision and now we have to have more debate. It seems pointless.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah I don't think there is such a thing as a true and complete democracy, Jenny...we have our vote as in remain/brexit for instance but once that vote is given and once the votes have determined then it's not down to us or anyone other than the government to implement and decide etc...we're always dependants once our votes are given...it's a shame that Ikea didn't do a big round table, big enough for us all to sit around and all decide the 'hows' together and be part of all decisions...we could team build and bond just putting the table together, that would take around 7 years anyway...

That is a good picture to think of Ammi,yes get back to basics.

Which is what no matter for who voted remain or leave, is what I hoped for, a govt. that would actually seek to heal divisions by bringing together all who campaigned and then work together to find the as near right consensus to go forward with the leaving of the EU.
A back to basics attitude and treat this issue as the truly wholly national issue it is.

Instead what the PM and the leading figures in govt have done is fuel the divisions among the people who voted on either side, also however caused major divisions with all political parties and MPs, even many of their own in the Conservative party too.

The UK and parliament now seem to be heading to be even more divided than they were on the surface before the referendum,that has to be down to the way the govt has itself chosen to exclude too many that should have been involved all through the process.
A big mess and all really sad too at such a great opportunity missed to heal divisions rather than open them up more.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]


That is a good picture to think of Ammi,yes get back to basics.

Which is what no matter for who voted remain or leave, is what I hoped for, a govt. that would actually seek to heal divisions by bringing together all who campaigned and then work together to find the as near right consensus to go forward with the leaving of the EU.
A back to basics attitude and treat this issue as the truly wholly national issue it is.

Instead what the PM and the leading figures in govt have done is fuel the divisions among the people who voted on either side, also however caused major divisions with all political parties and MPs, even many of their own in the Conservative party too.

The UK and parliament now seem to be heading to even more divided than they were on the surface before the referendum and that has to be down to the way the govt has itself chosen to exclude too many that should have been involved all through the process.
A big mess and all really sad too at such a great opportunity missed to heal divisions rather than open them up more.

I don't think it's fair to say the government have fueled division. They haven't really done anything yet apart from try to build a plan of some kind so they can take us forward. I don't view the process so far as anything other than preparation for negotiation. I don't think Parliament needs to micro manage everything the government in power does and if this vote stands after the appeal I think it sets a rather silly precedent.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]


That is a good picture to think of Ammi,yes get back to basics.

Which is what no matter for who voted remain or leave, is what I hoped for, a govt. that would actually seek to heal divisions by bringing together all who campaigned and then work together to find the as near right consensus to go forward with the leaving of the EU.
A back to basics attitude and treat this issue as the truly wholly national issue it is.

Instead what the PM and the leading figures in govt have done is fuel the divisions among the people who voted on either side, also however caused major divisions with all political parties and MPs, even many of their own in the Conservative party too.

The UK and parliament now seem to be heading to even more divided than they were on the surface before the referendum and that has to be down to the way the govt has itself chosen to exclude too many that should have been involved all through the process.
A big mess and all really sad too at such a great opportunity missed to heal divisions rather than open them up more.

"Instead what the PM and the leading figures in govt have done is fuel the divisions among the people who voted on either side"

evidence please

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't think it's fair to say the government have fueled division. They haven't really done anything yet apart from try to build a plan of some kind so they can take us forward. I don't view the process so far as anything other than preparation for negotiation. I don't think Parliament needs to micro manage everything the government in power does and if this vote stands after the appeal I think it sets a rather silly precedent.

On the contrary, it is what Parliament is for to have a government and oppositions who are expected to, and have a duty to, then fully scrutinise all a government does and hold it to account for it all too.
If you think otherwise then what is the point of an elected parliament at all.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"Instead what the PM and the leading figures in govt have done is fuel the divisions among the people who voted on either side"

evidence please

Show me the evidence where they have not.

All parliament came together in the main to vote for this referendum to be held, that was gaining unity and consensus on that act.

Since the vote with a pretty near 50/50 split across the UK,also as to how to proceed with the leaving process, even when to start the leaving process.

The govt has chosen to exclude even those MPs who all voted for the referendum in the first place from any further scrutiny.
That is hardly likely to heal any divisions.

It is allowing divisions across the nation to increase,the police issued the fact that a rise of 41% in hate related crime and incidents has occurred sine the referendum.
The govt should be acting swiftly to wipe that out, no matter who or where it comes from.

The govt rather than bringing the UK Nations on board and together on this are alienating Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland even more, just about to the point where she may call for and get her independence referendum and the UK then split well and truly.
Tensions in Ireland too, on both borders, because of lack of detail and proper assurances.

Then to set out to deny voting by MPs in parliament on any ongoing process as to this issue.
When all she had to say was she will be bringing a proposal forward for MPs to support the triggering of article 50 on such and such a date.
By not doing so, she has fuelled even greater division than there was among MPs on all sides than was there before.

How can the govt give seemingly selective assurances to Nissan but not to all other business, not to MPs either who should be informed of important issues, and worse still not to the wider public too.

All that fuels further suspicion and division,I would have thought that was likely obvious to anyone.

The unity from parliament that came into play to hold the referendum has been eroded by the PMs stubborn refusal to properly consult and more to the point listen to all sections of society, business and also MPs of all parties.
In my view, that is what I see,so for me the delays and the problems arising as to the process of leaving the EU being done with consensus and properly, now are of this PMs own making.

[Crimson Dynamo]

recorded hate crime is just that people reporting it on that new website

anyone can record it with any agenda but that does not make it a fact, people lie

and unless the claimant knows for a fact that the alleged crime was directly related to the referendum its mere conjecture

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

recorded hate crime is just that people reporting it on that new website

anyone can record it with any agenda but that does not make it a fact, people lie

and unless the claimant knows for a fact that the alleged crime was directly related to the referendum its mere conjecture

No one is talking about websites, it is actually the police themselves who have stated there has been a 41% increase in hate related incidents/crimes 'since the referendum'.
If you watch the daily politics you would have heard Andrew Neill say that many times now when questioning MPs.

Anyway, I answered your question.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

No one is talking about websites, it is actually the police themselves who have stated there has been a 41% increase in hate related incidents/crimes 'since the referendum'.
If you watch the daily politics you would have heard Andrew Neill say that many times now when questioning MPs.

Anyway, I answered your question.

indeed recorded but not investigated on a new website where you can "record" them not in person and with zero evidence and as I said there is no evidence to link most of them directly to the referendum

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The legal action which resulted in the High Court ruling was brought by a wealthy City investment manager, Gina Miller, and a hairdresser, Deir Dos Santos, about whom little is known and who is described as a British citizen of Brazilian origin.

Mrs Miller, married to a multi-millionaire hedge fund manager, is fronting for an outfit calling itself People’s Challenge — set up by an expat, Grahame Pigney, who lives in Carcassonne, France, and a Gilbraltarian government employee.

The action is also supported by something called Fair Deal for Expats, whose leading lights include a British company director who lives in Limoges, France; a businessman who runs a holiday rentals business in Italy; and an English language teacher in Hamburg, Germany.

They claim not to be trying to overturn the result, simply to ensure that Parliament controls the process.

We have entered a Looking Glass world in which — to paraphrase Humpty Dumpty — referendum results mean exactly what lawyers and judges decide they mean.

Outside the court, David Greene, lawyer for Deir Dos Santos, delivered the following statement, which defies satire: ‘We are the democrats here, not the Government.’

Who voted for him?




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...ITTLEJOHN.html

Yes LT.
Fecking. Bitch

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's not true. it's a point scoring exercise and a desperate attempt to slow or halt Brexit. All the politicians baying for their say are playing politics and trying to undermine the government's position and any bargaining will be messed up. It's pretty dumb and it's going to alienate people from parliament further.

On the bright side it makes any further Scottish referendum pointless and unviable.

I just hope if it ruins any negotiation that it will force hard brexit.

You are making no sense, politicians don't 'play' at it they are elected by us as our representatives, again that's democracy.
What will be messed up, how would knowing what is being negotiated mess it up?
Hard brexit will ruin the country, we can't afford to sit in the WTO.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The legal action which resulted in the High Court ruling was brought by a wealthy City investment manager, Gina Miller, and a hairdresser, Deir Dos Santos, about whom little is known and who is described as a British citizen of Brazilian origin.

Mrs Miller, married to a multi-millionaire hedge fund manager, is fronting for an outfit calling itself People’s Challenge — set up by an expat, Grahame Pigney, who lives in Carcassonne, France, and a Gilbraltarian government employee.

The action is also supported by something called Fair Deal for Expats, whose leading lights include a British company director who lives in Limoges, France; a businessman who runs a holiday rentals business in Italy; and an English language teacher in Hamburg, Germany.

They claim not to be trying to overturn the result, simply to ensure that Parliament controls the process.

We have entered a Looking Glass world in which — to paraphrase Humpty Dumpty — referendum results mean exactly what lawyers and judges decide they mean.

Outside the court, David Greene, lawyer for Deir Dos Santos, delivered the following statement, which defies satire: ‘We are the democrats here, not the Government.’

Who voted for him?




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...ITTLEJOHN.html

Which is what the ruling yesterday was all about...And David Greene is right, we the people have the right to hold the govt to account and take action if their actions are unconstitutional...that's exactly what happened.