[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Integration? Weren't we discussing Ireland on another thread?...Great example of Christian integration there. :/

The problems in NI are less about religion and more about being Irish Vs being British imo

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The problems in NI are less about religion and more about being Irish Vs being British imo

So the Catholic v Protestant thing is simply a cover?

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So the Catholic v Protestant thing is simply a cover?

No need for the sarcasm Kizzy

The Irish in NI are mainly catholic because Ireland is mainly a Catholic country and the "British" in the Northern Ireland are mainly Protestant because Britain is a mainly protestant country. The catholics in NI are not trying to convert the Protestants or force their religious wills on the Protestants and vice versa so it's not a religious war imo, they were never fighting in the name of religion, it was always a nationality and civil rights issue not a religious one. It's Protestant V's catholics because like I said Irish are more often Catholics and British are more often Protestant

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No need for the sarcasm Kizzy

The Irish in NI are mainly catholic because Ireland is mainly a Catholic country and the "British" in the Northern Ireland are mainly Protestant because Britain is a mainly protestant country. The catholics in NI are not trying to convert the Protestants or force their religious wills on the Protestants so it's not a religious war imo, they were never fighting in the name of religion, it was always a nationality and civil rights issue not a religious one. It's Protestant V's catholics because like I said Irish are more often Catholics and British are more often Protestant

That's how i saw it aswell.Although i did work with an Irish lad who hated protestants.He'd call them "Dem ****'n steel rods" "Da ****'n prods".

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

That's how i saw it aswell.Although i did work with an Irish lad who hated protestants.He'd call them "Dem ****'n steel rods" "Da ****'n prods".

Lovely But even there, I'm guessing he doesn't really hate them because they follow a slightly different version of Christianity to him, it was probably more like TS said, a tribal/national thing when you get down to it

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No need for the sarcasm Kizzy

The Irish in NI are mainly catholic because Ireland is mainly a Catholic country and the "British" in the Northern Ireland are mainly Protestant because Britain is a mainly protestant country. The catholics in NI are not trying to convert the Protestants or force their religious wills on the Protestants so it's not a religious war imo, they were never fighting in the name of religion, it was always a nationality and civil rights issue not a religious one. It's Protestant V's catholics because like I said Irish are more often Catholics and British are more often Protestant

I wasn't being sarcastic, England wasn't mainly a Protestant country until the reformation, which was a very religious thing.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I wasn't being sarcastic, England wasn't mainly a Protestant country until the reformation, which was a very religious thing.

The reformation was in the 16th century though, Northern Ireland was only formed in 1921, I'm talking specifically about NI

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The reformation was in the 16th century though, Northern Ireland was only formed in 1921, I'm talking specifically about NI

Yes so am I, the ill feeling goes back that far isn't that why Orangemen are called Orangemen?

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes so am I, the ill feeling goes back that far isn't that why Orangemen are called Orangemen?

Kizzy the ill feeling is because Ireland was split in two and half the people wanted a unified Ireland and the other "British" half did not. The Orange men are just a way to show how British they are. There were actually Protestants who were in the IRA so that alone blows the theory of it being a religious war out of the water

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So the Catholic v Protestant thing is simply a cover?

The issue spills over into Scotland quite a bit and I would say, certainly here at least, that it is 90% "Tribal" and has nothing to do with the actual religion. It centers heavily around Rangers/Celtic, if anything. If you asked anyone "involved" in the ... bickering ... then they would certainly say it's about Catholics and Protestants (although they would use less polite terms) but if you dig a little deeper, most of them don't follow anything religious at all. I'd say it's often more simple than being about ANY religious or political ideology of any kind... it's simply "two sides" who have been at each other's throats for centuries and pass the inherited mutual prejudice along family lines. It's not "about" anything. They hate each other 'cos they hate each other.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The issue spills over into Scotland quite a bit and I would say, certainly here at least, that it is 90% "Tribal" and has nothing to do with the actual religion. It centers heavily around Rangers/Celtic, if anything. If you asked anyone "involved" in the ... bickering ... then they would certainly say it's about Catholics and Protestants (although they would use less polite terms) but if you dig a little deeper, most of them don't follow anything religious at all. I'd say it's often more simple than being about ANY religious or political ideology of any kind... it's simply "two sides" who have been at each other's throats for centuries and pass the inherited mutual prejudice along family lines. It's not "about" anything. They hate each other 'cos they hate each other.

I don't think you can say its "not about anything" many families will have had people killed by both sides during the troubles, and going back further by the the black and tans, and going back further by the English letting people literally die during the famine.. yes for some people it might be about nothing but only if they have no family history. It is time to put it aside, and move forward that said though some people are still very angry about what happened during the troubles as evidenced by the Martin McGuinness thread and are not ready to put it aside and it is easy for me to say because I didn't lose anyone in the troubles, my Grand Uncle was killed by the black and tans and is remembered on a monument in my home town and I still remember my grandmother his sister telling me stories about it. I expect by the time the generations who were involved in the troubles die out and as long as there is no repeat, then in two generations time people might be ready to move on?

[Cherry Christmas]

We will have to wait for Niamh to expire as well she is not from the Rebel County for nothing

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Cherie

We will have to wait for Niamh to expire as well she is not from the Rebel County for nothing

Once we get our Independence from Dublin, we'll let it go

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Once we get our Independence from Dublin, we'll let it go

Up the rebels

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't think you can say its "not about anything" many families will have had people killed by both sides during the troubles, and going back further by the the black and tans, and going back further by the English letting people literally die during the famine.. yes for some people it might be about nothing but only if they have no family history. It is time to put it aside, and move forward that said though some people are still very angry about what happened during the troubles as evidenced by the Martin McGuinness thread and are not ready to put it aside and it is easy for me to say because I didn't lose anyone in the troubles, my Great Grand Uncle was killed by the black and tans and is remembered on a monument in my home town and I still remember my grandmother his sister telling me stories about it. I expect by the time the generations who were involved in the troubles die out and as long as there is no repeat, then in two generations time people might be ready to move on?

Thank you Cherie, that is what I was trying to reference in that thread with the 'where did it start , where will it end' comment meant just that there is still a lot of anger.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thank you Cherie, that is what I was trying to reference in that thread with the 'where did it start , where will it end' comment meant just that there is still a lot of anger.

You are welcome.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The issue spills over into Scotland quite a bit and I would say, certainly here at least, that it is 90% "Tribal" and has nothing to do with the actual religion. It centers heavily around Rangers/Celtic, if anything. If you asked anyone "involved" in the ... bickering ... then they would certainly say it's about Catholics and Protestants (although they would use less polite terms) but if you dig a little deeper, most of them don't follow anything religious at all. I'd say it's often more simple than being about ANY religious or political ideology of any kind... it's simply "two sides" who have been at each other's throats for centuries and pass the inherited mutual prejudice along family lines. It's not "about" anything. They hate each other 'cos they hate each other.

That's close to it TS. I was born in and have lived most of my life in N Ireland, in and around Belfast (I'm living in Dublin at the moment) and those 'sides' are a traditional thing. It just 'is'. When I was growing up most of us didn't know 'why'. We Catholics had some idea, we were taught a little Irish history in school but the Protestants had no idea, they only learned about British history. However, both sides got along just fine. Catholics would take their kids along to the see the Orangemen Parade on the 12th of July, it was a great day out. The troubles changed all that.
It was the 'hardliners' on both sides who created the Troubles. Civil rights? As a Catholic I never felt hard done by. I had the same civil rights as the Prods did. It was more of a social problem back then. Many Catholics standard of living wasn't as good as Protestants, but truth be told, that was because many had big families, many with more than 8 children, some with as many as 15 (there were 4 of us) while the Protestants usually had no more than 2 or 3, so they were stretched.
The size of Catholic families caused problems right across the board; in education, in housing, in employment etc. There were separate schools for each religion (many Catholics and Protestants lived in separate areas) in some cases employers hired according to religion too. There just weren't council houses big enough or enough jobs to go around. This created some poverty in certain areas in the bigger cities although there was always 'social security' for those in dire need. No - one was ever in any danger of starving, far from it in fact. Everyone, regardless of religion got free milk and free vitamins for every child up to 5 years old back then.
Then there is the United Ireland question. Again, it is the hardliners who caused the trouble here. The UK subsidise N. Ireland to the tune of 2 billion every year. The standard of living here is very good...so the devil you know and all that. The Republican government doesn't want us, and they could ill afford us. If they had us, their residents would pay for us with much higher taxes.The British don't really want us either. We're pesky.
In my experience, the average Catholic doesn't really want a U Ireland, they have it too good with all the free health care and dental care and free prescriptions and social security benefits. The average Protestant obviously doesn't want it but aren't that fond of the British and don't call themselves British. Most of them identify as Northern Irish. In an ideal world, with a great economy of our own, I'd say both sides would vote to be an independent country...no UK, no Republic.
....and the average Catholics and Protestants really don't hate each other. Even during the troubles, most people from both sides managed to keep long standing friendships intact and were disgusted with the violence.
It was the hardliners and those who they brainwashed/recruited that caused the mayhem and destruction.
And I'm proud to say that it has been noted many times over that N.Ireland is one of the friendliest ever places in Europe to visit. And it's beautiful too. The average Catholic and Protestant are still getting along just fine. Come and see for yourself.