[Withano]

Originally Posted by Tozzie

We are walking on eggshells the whole time for fear of offending.

Could have fooled me

[Tozzie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Could have fooled me

I've just squashed a load of eggshells daring to post what I just posted!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.

Well there you are generalizing a few arseholes as a whole group of people and highlighting the problem.

I suppose all Scousers are thieves too?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

[DemolitionRed]

And as for the ridiculous and repeated suggestion that we should be concentrating on those with more pressing needs. That's akin to saying, my compassion can only go so far.

I'm never sure where this idea of either/or comes from. If people feel called to stand up against GML... great! Why can’t we do both? People support overseas campaigns as well as local solutions Why must one choose one over the other?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And as for the ridiculous and repeated suggestion that we should be concentrating on those with more pressing needs. That's akin to saying, my compassion can only go so far.

I'm never sure where this idea of either/or comes from. If people feel called to stand up against GML... great! Why can’t we do both? People support overseas campaigns as well as local solutions Why must one choose one over the other?

I will choose my own priorities, not yours.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

I asked you a pertinent question based on things you keep saying. If you are offended by that, I suggest you can't handle debate.

What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I didn't say you were any of those things. You need to re-read what I actually said.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.

I know, you have said the same many times.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I will choose my own priorities, not yours.

Then don't join in and applaud suggestions that I should do otherwise!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I asked you a pertinent question based on things you keep saying. If you are offended by that, I suggest you can't handle debate.


I didn't say you were any of those things. You need to re-read what I actually said.

I know, you have said the same many times.

Your implications were clear, no point in back-tracking. You were not debating, just attempting to insult.

You don't agree with my opinions, I don't agree with yours - never the twain shall meet. That suits me.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.

My compassion does only go so far. I am concerned about the things I posted earlier in this thread... the plight of women in Islam, the FGM, the oppression of the gay community, Islam's rabid anti-semitism. I can't shed tears over whether someone wears a headscarf or not. And if you're spending a lot of time thinking about that, then you should know that women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK.

I'll say that again. Women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK. Theresa May backs this. Don'ty try wearing a bikini in Saudi though.... but hey, that's them, right? They're allowed to oppress women.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.

My compassion does only go so far. I am concerned about the things I posted earlier in this thread... the plight of women in Islam, the FGM, the oppression of the gay community, Islam's rabid anti-semitism. I can't shed tears over whether someone wears a headscarf or not. And if you're spending a lot of time thinking about that, then you should know that women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK.

I'll say that again. Women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK. Theresa May backs this. Don'ty try wearing a bikini in Saudi though.... but hey, that's them, right? They're allowed to oppress women.

I do. As you say it is always the same handful of people who try to undermine opposing views and shut down opinions in this way.

Believing in female equality and not being willing to simply ignore or tolerate the lack of respect of it from other cultures in the West is a right and one I will continually endorse. Respect works both ways. But for some, it is all one way and about everyone else continuously appeasing one group of people and if we are not prepared to do that then we are ..... the usual same old claptrap.

Not so much offended as bored stiff of it. Such tactics are obvious, blatant and lack insight and intelligence in my opinion. I also find it manipulative and controlling. Funny that!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Your implications were clear, no point in back-tracking. You were not debating, just attempting to insult.

You don't agree with my opinions, I don't agree with yours - never the twain shall meet. That suits me.

This is PC at its best.

You offend all of my moral values and regardless, I have tried to debate and reason with you, time and time again.

You insult Muslims all of the time and I find that distasteful, but when I ask you a question or suggest your words are unpleasant, you feel insulted.

You can have the last word but for me this discussion is over... at least with you.

[Niamh.]

Seriously can you all stop discussing eachother and stay on topic please?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.

Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own

And you all should be able to have different opinions without insulting eachother or getting personal, i really don't understand how it's so hard to just stay talking about the topic of the thread

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own

I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

Considering there's barely any threads in SD where the phrase 'Remoaner' isn't thrown about I'd say your assessment on the fact that people who vote remain are more likely to be insulting is fairly wrong.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

Alright, well dont try to act like the innocent victim through it, I know a lot of people that regularly oppose my side, including you, that have insulted me and others at times too.
I think its more of a snowball effect at times with the insults on here, starts with a small dig such as 'PC gone mad' or 'bit of a silly thing to say' and then the replies gradually get a bit more insulting as the discussion progresses - with neither party knowing where the line really is.
I cant think of a simple solution to this tbh. Stricter punishment system perhaps?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

Alright, well dont try to act like the innocent victim through it, I know a lot of people that regularly oppose my side, including you, that have insulted me and others at times too.
I think its more of a snowball effect at times with the insults on here, starts with a small dig such as 'PC gone mad' or 'bit of a silly thing to say' and then the replies gradually get a bit more insulting as the discussion progresses - with neither party knowing where the line really is.
I cant think of a simple solution to this tbh. Stricter punishment system perhaps?

I don't think stricter punishments are in order. Especially as the system of moderation allows moderators to be quite insulting during the course of a debate, and then punish others in the same debate, with differing opinions.

I haven't knowingly insulted you Withano. I only insult when someone insults me. I'm not saying I'm a paragon of virtue... I am saying that the whole feel of S&D, which has always been a little tense, is worse now than I've ever known it. I don't know what the answer is. Try to ignore those who try to insult you while remaining within the rules? I'll try that again... but you know, some people are persistent.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Considering there's barely any threads in SD where the phrase 'Remoaner' isn't thrown about I'd say your assessment on the fact that people who vote remain are more likely to be insulting is fairly wrong.

I think the majority of people who may have used that word have now given up and left.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't think stricter punishments are in order. Especially as the system of moderation allows moderators to be quite insulting during the course of a debate, and then punish others in the same debate, with differing opinions.

I haven't knowingly insulted you Withano. I only insult when someone insults me. I'm not saying I'm a paragon of virtue... I am saying that the whole feel of S&D, which has always been a little tense, is worse now than I've ever known it. I don't know what the answer is. Try to ignore those who try to insult you while remaining within the rules? I'll try that again... but you know, some people are persistent.

I'm not sure if many people knowingly insult others.. It seems to me, more one-up-manship, until somebody eventually crosses the line.
I think serious debates have got more.. serious.. because of the recent **** that went on.. brexit, trump, ge17 (admittedly, I dont know where the anti-muslim rhetoric has stemmed from, was there much of this before the referendum?).. but this hasnt been a normal 12 months for Western politics..
SD might revert to normal once the backlash of ge17, brexit, and trump dies down because I cant think of many upcoming political milestones as big as these in the near future

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm not sure if many people knowingly insult others.. It seems to me, more one-up-manship, until somebody eventually crosses the line.
I think serious debates have got more.. serious.. because of the recent **** that went on.. brexit, trump, ge17 (admittedly, I dont know where the anti-muslim rhetoric has stemmed from, was there much of this before the referendum?).. but this hasnt been a normal 12 months for Western politics..
SD might revert to normal once the backlash of ge17, brexit, and trump dies down because I cant think of many upcoming political milestones as big as these in the near future

You know, I really hope this place reverts to normal, as you say... whatever passed for normal around here.

Nice to talk this out with you though.