[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Because when I voted out, I believed ‘Brexit meant Brexit’ but in the aftermath of that vote, we’ve all had the opportunity to educate, speculate and discuss the sort of relationship we want to keep or abandon with Europe. There’s a myriad of possibilities and those possibilities are now categorized as hard or soft options.

What has become clear is, we are about to jump from one ship and join another. We are swapping one trade deal with the EU for another with America but this new trade deal is much bigger and much more ominous than anything we’ve ever had with the EU. The only way we can shake hands with Trump is to abandon all free trade with Europe. That’s the ‘hard’ option... the one you want and the one I don't want.



I never said the Cons did badly because of Brexit I suggested voters don't like the way we are being frog marched out without a deal that will best suit our economy.

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

By ‘remoaner’ I assume you mean someone who wishes to remain? and as you quoted Jaxie’s reply to me, your reply, in part is at me. I didn’t vote to remain. I have no desire to remain or reverse the process.

Please explain what you mean by “they are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition” Tell us what clarity we had about Brexit before we voted and then think, if you can spare the time, how that process has changed. Of course people didn’t know what they were voting for. Some naively believed it was going to stop immigrants coming in! others, like me, believed it was going to halt America's shenanigans on our shores and some believed it was going to rescue our NHS and guess what, we were wrong. But even then, even after it dawned on us that we’d been had, most of us still accepted the democratic vote… but we did and rightly so, want a process put in place (at the time there was no real process. All of that came later) that would safeguard our businesses, our human rights, our children’s futures and a better future outside Europe. Don't you want that too.. don't you?

You may well cringe at these people, and you may have the audacity to call them names and spit your naive bile at them whilst appearing not to know or understand any of the complexities of Brexit options. You just want to walk out, close the door and be done and anyone who doesn’t think like you are unpatriotic, undemocratic and foolish.

Yeah right!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

By ‘remoaner’ I assume you mean someone who wishes to remain? and as you quoted Jaxie’s reply to me, your reply, in part is at me. I didn’t vote to remain. I have no desire to remain or reverse the process.

Please explain what you mean by “they are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition” Tell us what clarity we had about Brexit before we voted and then think, if you can spare the time, how that process has changed. Of course people didn’t know what they were voting for. Some naively believed it was going to stop immigrants coming in! others, like me, believed it was going to halt America's shenanigans on our shores and some believed it was going to rescue our NHS and guess what, we were wrong. But even then, even after it dawned on us that we’d been had, most of us still accepted the democratic vote… but we did and rightly so, want a process put in place (at the time there was no real process. All of that came later) that would safeguard our businesses, our human rights, our children’s futures and a better future outside Europe. Don't you want that too.. don't you?

You may well cringe at these people, and you may have the audacity to call them names and spit your naive bile at them whilst appearing not to know or understand any of the complexities of Brexit options. You just want to walk out, close the door and be done and anyone who doesn’t think like you are unpatriotic, undemocratic and foolish.

Yeah right!

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

So the issue is with people who are unhappy with the result and imaginary people trying to 'sabotage' brexit?

The second bolded point highlights the fact that you do not understand what the referendum was. The referendum simply asked whether we should remain in the EU or not. It didn't clarify whether the people wanted a soft or hard brexit so by claiming the latter you are ironically speaking for the motivations of all voters, something you got upset about a few pages earlier when made my first post in this thread saying that most voters don't understand what they voted for....you also proved me right in that regard so thank you for that.

People voted for a brexit, not what kind of brexit they want and they've only got themselves to blame if we do have a soft brexit as they voted in a weak government when they had the opportunity to change things up.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

So the issue is with people who are unhappy with the result and imaginary people trying to 'sabotage' brexit?

The second bolded point highlights the fact that you do not understand what the referendum was. The referendum simply asked whether we should remain in the EU or not. It didn't clarify whether the people wanted a soft or hard brexit so by claiming the latter you are ironically speaking for the motivations of all voters, something you got upset about a few pages earlier when made my first post in this thread saying that most voters don't understand what they voted for....you also proved me right in that regard so thank you for that.

People voted for a brexit, not what kind of brexit they want and they've only got themselves to blame if we do have a soft brexit as they voted in a weak government when they had the opportunity to change things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...to-stop-brexit

The link above is just one example of someone trying to sabotage Brexit along with some newspapers i.e. The guardian and independent and countless others who constantly harp on about reversing Brexit. Do you understand that now or am I imagining that too!

You also don't seem to understand that your 'hero' Corbyn supports a hard Brexit and always has. Maybe you should do a bit of reading up about the man.

It really isn't a good look to keep trying to undermine people by accusing them of failing to 'understand' this that and the other when your level of understanding is clearly not as 'up there' as you try to imply. You are not the only one trying that on and not only is it weak it smacks of desperation. Understand that!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And you would know!!

More parroting, I don't think you are capable of coming up with a reply of substance.

I'll save you the bother of replying since you'll end up responding with something among the likes 'Well neither are you!'' or something equally inane. This is predictable and boring. I know what you're going to say before you say it.

Originally Posted by Brillopad

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...to-stop-brexit

The link above is just one example of someone trying to sabotage Brexit along with some newspapers i.e. The guardian and independent and countless others who constantly harp on about reversing Brexit. Do you understand that now or am I imagining that too!

You also don't seem to understand that your 'hero' Corbyn supports a hard Brexit and always has. Maybe you should do a bit of reading up about the man.

It really isn't a good look to keep trying to undermine people by accusing them of failing to 'understand' this that and the other when your level of understanding is clearly not as 'up there' as you try to imply. You are not the only one trying that on and not only is it weak it smacks of desperation. Understand that!

Ah, you're taking the book equivalent of a click bait article written by an irrelevant politician whose time has passed and is desperate to regain some sense of relevancy seriously? Straws, Brillo, don't grasp at them so tightly.

That Guardian article did it's job, it's meant to rile up gullible Leavers into a rage hence the bias language throughout. Brexit is going to happen and no amount of scaremongering so you have an excuse to blame the left/immigrants/minority groups/remainers will change that.

You are getting a brexit but it won't be the one you want and it's what the Leavers deserve for voting in the Tories despite the fact that they've gone back on everything they've said since May took charge. The red flags were there all along and voters ignored them because they'd rather believe in the fantasy May was peddling than the reality.

Ah, the obligatory 'I am losing the argument so I'm gonna bring up Corbyn' defense. Again, one of my main arguments during the election was that if people truly wanted a hard brexit then they should support Labour BECAUSE Corbyn wanted brexit all along and his cabinet would be less likely to bend to the EU as soon as things get difficult. You should pay more attention, Brillo. You've gone beyond parroting and now you're trying to rewrite history and take my arguments as your own. Make your own arguments and stop piggy backing off others.

It's not a good look to constantly contradict yourself but that doesn't stop you, does it? You showed us all a fundamental lack of understanding of what the referendum was and what it meant. Like I said before, the referendum was to gauge interest in a brexit, not to decide what kind of Brexit it would be and in doing so you contradicted yourself by speaking for the intent of all leavers when you previously acted high and mighty when I suggested that most voters were ignorant and backed it up with logic that hasn't been overcome by you or your friends.

Again, that last paragraph was basically nothing but parroting what's been said to you. It's just sad at this point. I just don't think you can come up with your own thoughts and views without an article telling you what to think or repeating what other people have said to you. It's quite pointless speaking to you, you're never going to come up with a good argument because all you seem to be capable of doing is repeating what has been said.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

I mix with a lot of people and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t accept the vote. Come to think of it, I don’t know anyone on here who doesn't accept the vote. Sure, some aren’t happy with the outcome but we can hardly liken their unhappiness to childish sulking. This whole thing is fcuking serious stuff, its going to affect people’s livelihoods and its going to uproot entire families. You call it sulking, I call it concern and in fairness to them, they have every right to be worried.

So here are the options https://www.ft.com/content/52fb4998-...d-c19e2700005f which includes the winners and the losers…. There is no option 7. Brexit, though I think Jaxie and you disagree, is all about political matters and those matters should certainly be up for discussion.

So no, leaving the EU and slamming the door on our way out was never the only option on the table.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

Didn't you get on a high horse about my opinion of voters? Do you completely lack any self awareness? Because acting self righteous over me saying that most voters vote in ignorance and saying that I shouldn't say things like that and THEN spouting that bull**** about Remainers is so hypocritical that I cannot believe you are unaware of it.

Don't take the moral high ground if you aren't willing to commit to it yourself, Brillo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Didn't you get on a high horse about my opinion of voters? Do you completely lack any self awareness? Because acting self righteous over me saying that most voters vote in ignorance and saying that I shouldn't say things like that and THEN spouting that bull**** about Remainers is so hypocritical that I cannot believe you are unaware of it.

Don't take the moral high ground if you aren't willing to commit to it yourself, Brillo.

Maybe I have just decided to do unto others as they do unto me. What don't you like a taste of your own medicine? What a shock!

You talk of self awareness - really. You are the very last person I would take seriously when spouting a comment like that.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Maybe I have just decided to do unto others as they do unto me. What don't you like a taste of your own medicine? What a shock!

You talk of self awareness - really. You are the very last person I would take seriously when spouting a comment like that.

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

Since you brought me up while on your high horse, read everything you said and then apply to self.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

You take the moral high ground all the time - you just don't see it. It's that lack of self awareness I was referring to.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You take the moral high ground all the time - you just don't see it. It's that lack of self awareness I was referring to.

Parroting doesn't make for a compelling argument. Put more effort into it because anyone can just repeat what's been said to them.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

You need to pay attention and stop being so pedantic. Do you want to discuss the realities of this political decision on how we exit and fruitfully exist outside Europe or do you want to continue pigeonholing the dictionary definition in an attempt to win an argument at any cost? If it’s the later then I refuse to entertain you further.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You need to pay attention and stop being so pedantic. Do you want to discuss the realities of this political decision on how we exit and fruitfully exist outside Europe or do you want to continue pigeonholing the dictionary definition in an attempt to win an argument at any cost? If it’s the later then I refuse to entertain you further.

Nice deflect. What has the dictionary got to do with it? I was discussing the realities of what it means to exit, which you voted for. That's the reality it's not about how you exit. You exit and negotiate a new relationship based on the fact you are no longer a member. We exist fruitfully outside the EU in similar way to the rest of the world who aren't members of the EU. You don't have to respond to me to entertain me. The idea that because we are leaving the EU that children will have no future and business will die is just scaremongering.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Nice deflect. What has the dictionary got to do with it? I was discussing the realities of what it means to exit, which you voted for. That's the reality it's not about how you exit. You exit and negotiate a new relationship based on the fact you are no longer a member. We exist fruitfully outside the EU in similar way to the rest of the world who aren't members of the EU. You don't have to respond to me to entertain me. The idea that because we are leaving the EU that children will have no future and business will die is just scaremongering.

Just accept that your realities are very different to mine. If you think walking through that exit door is all going to come together like milk and honey, just keep telling yourself that.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Just accept that your realities are very different to mine. If you think walking through that exit door is all going to come together like milk and honey, just keep telling yourself that.

I've never said anything about milk and honey, or slamming doors come to that, I said you leave and close the door behind you, then you negotiate a new relationship. No big change is without some sacrifice but that doesn't mean it is going to be all gloom and doom either or that we should stay in a cocoon that is not right for us. I am completely confident that this is the right thing if I wasn't I would have taken the easy route and voted to stay in the rickety boat that is the EU.

I am mystified why you voted to leave when you seem so afraid of it now and why you find it so terrifying when the signs indicate nothing particularly terrible has happened inspite of the doom and gloom predictions. For instance reports today on BBC news say that UK unemployment is at a 42 year low. Consumer price inflation seems to be holding steady and bucking expectations. UK wage expectations grow by better than expected. The Outlook is currently positive.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I've never said anything about milk and honey, or slamming doors come to that, I said you leave and close the door behind you, then you negotiate a new relationship. No big change is without some sacrifice but that doesn't mean it is going to be all gloom and doom either or that we should stay in a cocoon that is not right for us. I am completely confident that this is the right thing if I wasn't I would have taken the easy route and voted to stay in the rickety boat that is the EU.

I am mystified why you voted to leave when you seem so afraid of it now and why you find it so terrifying when the signs indicate nothing particularly terrible has happened inspite of the doom and gloom predictions. For instance reports today on BBC news say that UK unemployment is at a 42 year low. Consumer price inflation seems to be holding steady and bucking expectations. UK wage expectations grow by better than expected. The Outlook is currently positive.

Perhaps the more one understands, the more daunting our future looks. I'm not afraid but I do have some serious concerns.

Employment has risen and that’s fantastic but one has to wonder, what percentage of new employment is part time, zero hour contracts, constrained hours due to those on benefits. What percentage are in taxpayer-backed training schemes or self-employed or not earning a living wage and how much disguised unemployment is there? (When someone is refused benefits, they are not counted as unemployed). How many of these employed people are underemployed? http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/41...-unemployment/

Inflation is outstripping wage growth. Salaries presently stand at 2.1 percent and inflation is 2.7 percent and the Bank of England suggests it could hit 3 percent by the end of this year. To top it all, the Bank of England has given a strong indication to an interest rate rise.