[DemolitionRed]

They already make something that resembles synthetic bacon.

[waterhog]

science and food should not mix - bit like all the GM food stuff.

no no no

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

They already make something that resembles synthetic bacon.

That stuff made from turkeys?

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, some vegetarians are healthy and know how to replace what they lose from meat, but a lot aren't. Theres a kid at my daughters school with vegan parents who have forced their beliefs onto their child and my god, she looks like a walking skeleton, grey tinge to her skin too...clearly not healthy. My daughter says she cries at school when others get stuff likle roast beef dinners, chicken burgers and stuff as she really wants it, poor kid.

(Apparently my daughter gave this kid her beef at one stage, as my daughter doesn't like beef anyway and the kid apparently loved it. Expecting hell on from the parents at some stage, but the teachers obviously did not see, or didn't tell them...so its only if the kid slips up and says something )

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

That stuff made from turkeys?

No, its made specifically for vegetarians. I'm always puzzled why some food manufacturers think vegetarians would want to eat something that looked like meat

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by y.winter

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

An American friend of mine was having a party once when she noticed her small finger was swollen and painful. By the next day every finger, on one hand, looked like a sausage. Tests confirmed she had early onset rheumatoid arthritis and she was offered steroid injections (something she would have to have for the rest of her life). Fortunately for her, she comes from a wealthy family. She flew out to see a specialist in California and it was strongly suggested she went onto a vegan diet immediately. She gave it a try. Within weeks the swelling and pain subsided. Fifteen years later she's still a strict vegan who has never had another flare-up of rheumatoid arthritis.

For people who suffer inflammatory diseases of the joints, a vegetarian diet is good and a vegan diet is excellent.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

Afraid of veggies?

I would absolutely b e judging parents who gave their kids mcdonalds everyday tbh. But its the mcdonalds that would be the issue, not the meat itself

I have a fairly bad view about vegans mainly as every one I know...once they went vegan became unhealthy as they clearly did not manage their diet properly. Yes it can be done, but it seems most do not do it. A fair amount of veggies I know are the same too...but vegetarians seem to do so much better than vegans. Yes not all vegans and so on, but when 100% of the people you know who went vegan ended up looking severely ill and with multiple health problems...well it kind of darkens your view on it tbh and I still think it should be down to the kids choice if they wish to eat meat or not. I see it as not dissimilar to my daughter refusing to eat beef. So we don't give her beef, forcing her to eat it would be wrong. Equally if she wanted to try something, we would let her try it

So basically, personal view, grand. Forcing it on others, not. Most vegans, not healthy. Some veggies are. But either way, should be the kids choice and I find it just cruel to keep denying the child something they clearly want and could benefit from

I even know someone who forced vegetarianism on their cat ffs. Forced being the operative word, as the poor miserable thing is now dead..which I am sure its happy for.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I only have two rules when it comes to food tbh, a) it tastes nice and b) it's not dangerous to me, so if lab meat fulfilled these two I'd have no problem

It's why I never really *got* the horse meat scandal a few years back. Like, obviously lying to consumers is completely reprehensible but much of the outrage was about 'ew! I don't want to eat horses!' and I just thought I couldn't care less what it is if it tastes nice. I find the whole monopoly of dignity people put on their home nation's domesticated animals a bit strange really, why is the life of a dog more important than a pig just because it could be a pet?

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Afraid of veggies?

I would absolutely b e judging parents who gave their kids mcdonalds everyday tbh. But its the mcdonalds that would be the issue, not the meat itself

I have a fairly bad view about vegans mainly as every one I know...once they went vegan became unhealthy as they clearly did not manage their diet properly. Yes it can be done, but it seems most do not do it. A fair amount of veggies I know are the same too...but vegetarians seem to do so much better than vegans. Yes not all vegans and so on, but when 100% of the people you know who went vegan ended up looking severely ill and with multiple health problems...well it kind of darkens your view on it tbh and I still think it should be down to the kids choice if they wish to eat meat or not. I see it as not dissimilar to my daughter refusing to eat beef. So we don't give her beef, forcing her to eat it would be wrong. Equally if she wanted to try something, we would let her try it

So basically, personal view, grand. Forcing it on others, not. Most vegans, not healthy. Some veggies are. But either way, should be the kids choice and I find it just cruel to keep denying the child something they clearly want and could benefit from

I even know someone who forced vegetarianism on their cat ffs. Forced being the operative word, as the poor miserable thing is now dead..which I am sure its happy for.

Going to the gym and lifting some weights doesn't mean you're helping your body, you could quite easily harm yourself - it's all about doing it right. Same goes with diet and nutrition.
For me, it comes to show how badly educated people are when it comes to plant based food. When fruits and vegetables almost go under the same group in the (allegedly) food pyramid they teach you in school, when in reality it has so much layers and they differ from each other in so many aspects. When I'm getting asked "of you're vegan? So what do you have to eat?" I love to joke and answer "lettuce", because I find it funny that once you take dairy products and meat from the equation, people don't know where to begin with - and it's ridiculous, because there's so much to begin with and the variety is enormous without even touching the fake meat and like-milk category. Just replacing your meat meals with veggie burgers and other supermarket-bought frozen vegan meals and your yogurt with soy based one -doesn't mean you're doing it right. But people think they are, when it's actually mostly junk food with zero nutritional values.
In regards to the child thing - eating animals is not more of a default diet than a vegan diet is, it's rather your own personal opinion/social convention (not necessarily a right one). There's nothing unbalanced and non beneficial in vegan diet (in fact it has more than many other diets). People don't know how to deal with it because of bad/lack of education - this is where it falls.
And as for the cat lady - yeah, I have come across a lot of weird people, vegans and non vegans, so the way I see it, it's nothing but ad hominem.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

i 110% agree with this

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

Going to the gym and lifting some weights doesn't mean you're helping your body, you could quite easily harm yourself - it's all about doing it right. Same goes with diet and nutrition.
For me, it comes to show how badly educated people are when it comes to plant based food. When fruits and vegetables almost go under the same group in the (allegedly) food pyramid they teach you in school, when in reality it has so much layers and they differ from each other in so many aspects. When I'm getting asked "of you're vegan? So what do you have to eat?" I love to joke and answer "lettuce", because I find it funny that once you take dairy products and meat from the equation, people don't know where to begin with - and it's ridiculous, because there's so much to begin with and the variety is enormous without even touching the fake meat and like-milk category. Just replacing your meat meals with veggie burgers and other supermarket-bought frozen vegan meals and your yogurt with soy based one -doesn't mean you're doing it right. But people think they are, when it's actually mostly junk food with zero nutritional values.
In regards to the child thing - eating animals is not more of a default diet than a vegan diet is, it's rather your own personal opinion/social convention (not necessarily a right one). There's nothing unbalanced and non beneficial in vegan diet (in fact it has more than many other diets). People don't know how to deal with it because of bad/lack of education - this is where it falls.
And as for the cat lady - yeah, I have come across a lot of weird people, vegans and non vegans, so the way I see it, it's nothing but ad hominem.

Well yes, more education about this in schools and in general tbh would definitely help. As I said, my opinion on the whole thing may well be biased due to the people I know who are veggie/vegan and how I have actually watched them become pale and ridiculously thin after ditching meat, heard them going on about suffering severe anemia and so on. But yes, they probably just don't balance stuff properly or understand that its so much more than just replacing chicken with processed crap from the supermarket :S

I am not saying eating animals should be the default diet for kids. But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbh

[user104658]

TBH I find there's a lot of idealism from people who haven't actually had children, when it comes to children and veganism.

Most children forced onto a vegan diet end up with an iron deficiency, or even anemia. This is what is causing the pale skin and lethargy. Now, this is where vegans start crowing about how many other sources of food, such as green veg, contain plentiful iron to replace the loss from not eating meat.

I challenge you to try to get a child to actually eat green veg. Most children simply will not eat enough of it to replace the iron source lost from not eating meat. They'll load up on grain-based carbs and fruit no problem. They're not going to eat brocolli. It just isn't going to magically happen. "Oh but if that's what they're used to getting" blah blah blah NO... the people saying this are almost exclusively childless and are talking ****. Or they're the vegan mummies pretending that their pale, lethargic child does indeed eat all of his green veg. Spoiler: He doesn't really.

tl;dr I think it's a perfectly acceptable, great even, diet for adults but until there are genuine replacement products that children will actually reliably eat that contain the lost essentials... it is a selfish and dangerous decision to make for a child. Humans are omnivores by nature. It may be more morally correct to be herbivore and with a varied diet it is totally possible but, no, it is not natural; it is a decision, and decisions are for individuals to make, not for parents to force upon their children. Let them eat a natural, varied human diet until they are old enough to make the decision themselves and then by all means encourage it... when they are old enough to understand nutrition and why it's important to eat the "yucky parts".

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbh

If she's actually at the point of crying for certain types of food then it's highly likely that the kid is craving, and has a deficiency. It's not just cruel, it's abuse that's going to cause long-term health problems .

[user104658]

Oh and as a final point, I would add;

Late teens / young adults are still in a rebellion phase. If you force a vegan diet on a child, there's a very high chance that as soon as they move out and are buying their own food they're going to:

A) Eat a ****-tonne of meat;

and

B) Get fat.



This has been statistically proven to be true of kids who "never" get things like chocolate or occasional "junk food" treats at home. As soon as they have their own space and their own cash, and it's logical to assume the exact same is true of any restrictive diet.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

What? I don't think that's what Jack was saying though, from what I understood from his posts he means like what right do we have to judge other countries for eating a type of meat that we don't just because we like those animals more? Don't get me wrong I hate the thought of killing and eating dogs and cats because I view them as pets but at the end of the day they're animals like cows and sheep and pigs so it is hypocritical to judge a country for eating them while munching a kebab

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

We eat very little meat, probably once a week. We are not natural carnivores but omnivores and so occasional meat eating is fine in my world.

The thing is though, we like to keep carnivores as pets and as unnatural as it is for us to eat meat daily, its equally unnatural for our dogs and cats to eat a vegetarian diet. If we all stopped eating meat, would we still slaughter animals for our pets?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

yeah totally agree, I do look at it with horror now when I think about it too much

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, more education about this in schools and in general tbh would definitely help. As I said, my opinion on the whole thing may well be biased due to the people I know who are veggie/vegan and how I have actually watched them become pale and ridiculously thin after ditching meat, heard them going on about suffering severe anemia and so on. But yes, they probably just don't balance stuff properly or understand that its so much more than just replacing chicken with processed crap from the supermarket :S

I am not saying eating animals should be the default diet for kids. But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbh

I really don't know about those parents personally, so I don't think I can have a proper answer in this case. Kids tend to cry and throw a tantrum about many things ("mommy buy me!" "Mommy I want!" etc), some are justified and some are not, and parental guidance takes part somewhere in-between. It can be a right demand, but it can also be peer pressure for example - kids don't always know what's good for them and it's up to their parents to show them the way (as long as it's not neglecting them). This is my non experienced take on parenthood anyway haha. I don't know the couple or the child but I believe that if something is disturbingly wrong, you can only raise a flag and let the kindergartner/authorities to deal with it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If schools ran regular trips to abattoirs it would greatly help

[jaxie]

I should probably start by saying we aren't vegetarian though the slaughter and eating of animals does bother me, I can't give up the bacon. Having said that I have never had any problems getting my kids to eat vegetables, including broccoli which we've always called little trees which I think helped it appeal more in a magical sort of way.

At birthday parties we always had the little cakes and all the other stuff people have like sausage rolls etc but I always put out a platter of chopped raw veggies a little dip and you know what the kids always ate it, not only my own kids. I remember my mother in law being amazed at one party that there were cakes on the table and the carrot sticks were going like hot cakes.

I remember my sister in law sucking chocolate buttons to soften and putting them on her daughter's mouth when she was one. I didn't give chocolate until they asked and would give them raisons when young. Interestingly my son still doesn't have a sweet tooth and can take or leave chocolate.

I don't really believe this adage that kids won't eat green or other vegetables. I think bad eating habits are given to kids by people like my sister in law. If the veg is available but they aren't forced to eat it then I've found most kids will happily eat it. If they don't like something don't force it, try something else. I think one of the problems with children and veg is being forced to eat badly cooked veg. There is a huge difference between cabbage with the life boiled out of it and cabbage tossed in a little olive oil, salt and pepper, and a few tablespoons of water until soft. But saying they won't eat it is a myth.

With regard to the little girl crying for meat this is probably more about wanting to be like everyone else than the actual meat. She is being singled out as different at mealtimes and that can be uncomfortable for a child.

[Kizzy]

What do you think quorn is? It's meat flavoured wheat protein.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

How about you wind your neck in for a second? For starters your first half sentence is purely subjective, do I think killing animals for food is problematic and morally wrong? Yes. Do I care enough to stop eating meat? No, and I'm not going to pretend I do. Would I be prepared to give it up provided there was an alternative that covered the two bases I noted in the post you quoted? Probably.

As for the rest of it...Niamh pretty much summed up my intended point though I will add that I myself would have no qualms about trying 'different' meats. The only animal I truly love are cats but if I was offered to try a bit (provided I wasn't privy to the cat or its demise a la other meats, obviously) I'm not going to sit here and tell you I wouldn't be tempted because I'd be lying. The point I'm making is that I find the monopoly of dignity we put on certain animals that we've domesticated completely bogus. So, in the horse meat scandal that I mentioned, my issue was with the corporate lies to consumers rather than the fact the substitute meat had been horses. If it tastes nice and isn't dangerous to me...I really couldn't care less what animal it was.

I just find the whole 'but they're our pets!' thing complete hypocrisy. Either you abhor the killing of all animals, or you (like me) are open to trying/eating/allowing other people to eat whatever animals they like. You don't get to pick and choose which animals lives are more valuable than others simply because you could have some of them as pets, I actually think that's worse than either of the other two positions. Oh and lastly, if you're just using this as an opportunity to peddle your whole 'aren't foreign customs weird lol' then spare me because I'm really not interested.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I should probably start by saying we aren't vegetarian though the slaughter and eating of animals does bother me, I can't give up the bacon. Having said that I have never had any problems getting my kids to eat vegetables, including broccoli which we've always called little trees which I think helped it appeal more in a magical sort of way.

At birthday parties we always had the little cakes and all the other stuff people have like sausage rolls etc but I always put out a platter of chopped raw veggies a little dip and you know what the kids always ate it, not only my own kids. I remember my mother in law being amazed at one party that there were cakes on the table and the carrot sticks were going like hot cakes.

I remember my sister in law sucking chocolate buttons to soften and putting them on her daughter's mouth when she was one. I didn't give chocolate until they asked and would give them raisons when young. Interestingly my son still doesn't have a sweet tooth and can take or leave chocolate.

I don't really believe this adage that kids won't eat green or other vegetables. I think bad eating habits are given to kids by people like my sister in law. If the veg is available but they aren't forced to eat it then I've found most kids will happily eat it. If they don't like something don't force it, try something else. I think one of the problems with children and veg is being forced to eat badly cooked veg. There is a huge difference between cabbage with the life boiled out of it and cabbage tossed in a little olive oil, salt and pepper, and a few tablespoons of water until soft. But saying they won't eat it is a myth.

With regard to the little girl crying for meat this is probably more about wanting to be like everyone else than the actual meat. She is being singled out as different at mealtimes and that can be uncomfortable for a child.

Wish my kids were like this. They are always given a few different veg as part of their main meals. Never forced to eat it (I don't pressure them to eat anything, besides telling them that if they don't eat the healthy stuff they aren't getting desert...if that counts as forcing ), but its fairly rare that they will eat it without some form of bribing, and sometimes refuse even with that.

I was a dodgy kid like this and the picky eating is still with me tbh. I used to refuse all veg besides carrots, where my brother and sister ate veg a fair bit (but still not as often as my parents would have liked) so it clearly wasn't anything my parents did wrong if 2/3 kids were healthier eaters

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

Bit sus about people who eat horses.. But people who eat fluffy ikkle lambs are perfectly sane and rational? :/

We ate horses until the 20th century when after being used in the war plus owned as pets elevated their status, that's all.

'By the 20th century many British towns had horse meat butchers to supply “kicker eaters” (Yorkshire slang for hippophagists). In Sheffield, in Aberdeen, beef was not the only red meat on offer. It had to be sold with clear labelling and new shops made the national newspapers, but it was openly available. Like whale meat, it was seen as a cheap cut, and, although debate raged on, had some popularity in wartime.
And yet the horse’s lot was changing once more. As the number of working horses tumbled following World War Two, so the horse moved further from being livestock and closer to being a pet and friend. British appetites fell away as images of horses being shipped to the continent for slaughter reached the public. A mid 1980s scare over trichomoniasis contamination only reinforced sentiments: there was something shameful about eating horses.'

'But there is no reason not to eat horse meat. It is abundant, and good for you. Steak tartare is traditionally recommended for invalids due to its supposed purity. Horses are fussy eaters; unlike cows they eat only grain and grass and could not be persuaded to eat meat and bone-meal.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddr...dont-they.html