[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Alf

Maybe the men haters choose the wrong men in life? You always see women judging men on looks alone, and hear many of them say, "I like a bad boy" And women seem creeped out by shy quiet boys.

Alf, men have always been the worst for judging potential partners on looks - that is far more a male trait than a female one. I do agree on the bad boy thing though - some women are their own worst enemy.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Have the women who are part of the discussion today been oppressed by the men who are part of the discussion today for millenia? This part always confuses me; this idea that "women" and "men" are some sort of cohesive sentient entity with a memory stretching back beyond the lifespan of the individual. It doesn't really make sense.

That's not to say the millenia of oppression doesn't still affect society today; it does in many ways and that's something that society as a whole needs to address. But the fact is, many (most) of the men who are part of the discussion today have never oppressed anyone in any way, and so the idea that they should be excluded from the discussion of achieving equality is ludicrous and entirely misses the point. Of course men shouldn't lead or dominate the discussion, but nor should women lead or dominate the discussion... And anyone who thinks they should, frankly, is not seeking equality.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well... firstly, no, they were not the same men that have oppressed women over millennia. In much the same way that Britain is no longer an Empire, oppressing other countries but we're constantly reminded of our input... You only have to have a glance through Serious Debates to know that Britain is STILL accused of all kinds of stuff that happened before any of us was born... what we did in the Raj... what we did in Africa.... etc. etc. I don't see how it's different, really. People IN those countries don't want British people involved in affairs affecting their country. And in much the same way, although the men alive now have not oppressed women over millennia, I for one don't want men to be leading a discussion about feminism.

Of course, that doesn't mean I think men should not be involved in the discussion. We need men on board... but this is about women. And while most men are very supportive and thoughtful... you've only got to look at some of the aggression that surfaces, from some men, whenever there's a discussion about feminism and women's rights.

Very well said Livia.

Of course male allys is a good thing. But men trying to basically...take over and tell women they are doing feminism wrong, well...thats a bit not good.

And so many men cannot help but dominate a conversation. Its socialized into them. Thats not an insult as socialization is extremely hard to fight (I have tried and failed many many times) so men being socialized to dominate and be strong, while women are socialized to be 'nice' and put others first..well its not a good combination is it...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Also a great post.

You two can put my thoughts so much better than I can

Definitely yes to the 'the law is equal, shut up, we are equal now' stuff. Yes the law is equal. treatment however, is not and much discrimination still exists...every day.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You think most women haven’t experienced discrimination - I have on several occasions. It always has been and still is to a degree a part of every woman’s life. Discrimination is not exclusive to minority groups. It shows how much you know if that is what you are trying to say.

Okay, you haven't read my post at all, have you?

I'm saying that the idea of men seeing gender equality as an attack on themselves is something that is common to certain people in all majorities because the idea of equality those people have are warped. I'm not saying that women haven't faced discrimination.

Jesus Christ, Brillo. Please at least to attempt to read a post before you respond to it because nothing you have said has any relevance on what I have said at all.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well... firstly, no, they were not the same men that have oppressed women over millennia. In much the same way that Britain is no longer an Empire, oppressing other countries but we're constantly reminded of our input... You only have to have a glance through Serious Debates to know that Britain is STILL accused of all kinds of stuff that happened before any of us was born... what we did in the Raj... what we did in Africa.... etc. etc. I don't see how it's different, really. People IN those countries don't want British people involved in affairs affecting their country. And in much the same way, although the men alive now have not oppressed women over millennia, I for one don't want men to be leading a discussion about feminism.

Of course, that doesn't mean I think men should not be involved in the discussion. We need men on board... but this is about women. And while most men are very supportive and thoughtful... you've only got to look at some of the aggression that surfaces, from some men, whenever there's a discussion about feminism and women's rights.

But it isn't about women, it's about equality, and stating that the pursuit of (any) equality is only about the historically disadvantaged side "of the scales" has more to do with addressing "past injury" than it does with achieving future equality. "An eye for an eye", "its our turn now and we can only have equality after we've had our turn" -type equality isn't the type of equality that anyone should be seeking... It isn't equality at all. I mean sure, acknowledge and address the fact that people have "lost eyes" in the past, acknowledge that it's wrong and regrettable, and then have everyone move forward together, progressively, to ensure that it doesn't continue happening. It's literally the only way things are going to improve... But, it so often seems to me that many people are far more concerned with having past grievances acknowledged than they are with preventing future grievances, and even at the EXPENSE of progress. "We have the right to be angry and hold grudges even if that anger makes things worse".

It makes me question the entire motive.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Very well said Livia.

Of course male allys is a good thing. But men trying to basically...take over and tell women they are doing feminism wrong, well...thats a bit not good.

And so many men cannot help but dominate a conversation. Its socialized into them. Thats not an insult as socialization is extremely hard to fight (I have tried and failed many many times) so men being socialized to dominate and be strong, while women are socialized to be 'nice' and put others first..well its not a good combination is it...

I have another theory, and I know this will be a bit unpopular and it is slightly off-topic, but here goes...

Whenever I've met a transsexual person, or see them on TV, I've been struck by how much less dramatic and loud the female to male transsexuals are. You really don't see them in the press, demanding their rights, crying "I'm a REAL man!". Male to female transsexuals, however, have been men all their lives and they are used to standing up and saying, right, this is what I think and you're going to listen.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Very true - it has been and still is a substantial part of all women’s lives. There are the smaller ways as you mention in your post and the larger ways such as sexual assault and murder.

I found it interesting that in an article posted on here recently it stated that there had been 23 murders of self-identified transwomen/men as opposed to 1600 women by men in the same time period. That says a lot.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have another theory, and I know this will be a bit unpopular and it is slightly off-topic, but here goes...

Whenever I've met a transsexual person, or see them on TV, I've been struck by how much less dramatic and loud the female to male transsexuals are. You really don't see them in the press, demanding their rights, crying "I'm a REAL man!". Male to female transsexuals, however, have been men all their lives and they are used to standing up and saying, right, this is what I think and you're going to listen.

Which isn't a bad thing at all of course but young girls should be socialised the same way to feel like their voice is important

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But it isn't about women, it's about equality, and stating that the pursuit of (any) equality is only about the historically disadvantaged side "of the scales" has more to do with addressing "past injury" than it does with achieving future equality. "An eye for an eye", "its our turn now and we can only have equality after we've had our turn" -type equality isn't the type of equality that anyone should be seeking... It isn't equality at all. I mean sure, acknowledge and address the fact that people have "lost eyes" in the past, acknowledge that it's wrong and regrettable, and then have everyone move forward together, progressively, to ensure that it doesn't continue happening. It's literally the only way things are going to improve... But, it so often seems to me that many people are far more concerned with having past grievances acknowledged than they are with preventing future grievances, and even at the EXPENSE of progress. "We have the right to be angry and hold grudges even if that anger makes things worse".

It makes me question the entire motive.

It's about WOMENS equality. Men have been more than equal for a long time. And women don't need men to lead us on this. But we do need your support.

I honestly don't see how anything else you've said relates to what I said.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Which isn't a bad thing at all of course but young girls should be socialised the same way to feel like their voice is important

Yes, absolutely they should.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have another theory, and I know this will be a bit unpopular and it is slightly off-topic, but here goes...

Whenever I've met a transsexual person, or see them on TV, I've been struck by how much less dramatic and loud the female to male transsexuals are. You really don't see them in the press, demanding their rights, crying "I'm a REAL man!". Male to female transsexuals, however, have been men all their lives and they are used to standing up and saying, right, this is what I think and you're going to listen.

Yes. I have said this for a very long time now. The socialization is so obvious. You do not see transmen demanding entry into male areas, you see no transmen winning awards and such...transmen are basically invisible whilst transwomen are at the forefront screaming about unfairness and demanding everyone else buy into their religion.

Actually a bulk of transactivism comes across extremely MRA like to me too. And MRA types like to attach themselves to transactivism for obvious reasons. If it becomes law that any man is a woman, then thats all womens rights gone in one swoop. Part of the reason I am so against it. I kind of see a lot of transactivism as a fightback against women getting more equal. Its backlash, and the MRAs love it. Obviously not all transactivists are MRAs, but there is so much crossover its impossible to ignore.

Look...once I saw it I could not unsee it tbh

Spoiler:

Not all transactivists are like that obviously, but a hell of a lot are. These tend to be the same ones who believe in 'lady penis' and don't actually alter their bodies in any way, the ones who say that sex dysphoria is not needed to be trans...the more mental ones. They come across exactly like MRAs to me. Seems that some men have found a way to pushback against women getting equal. And its genius really..to attach yourself to a group of people who do generally require support and understanding.

I first started to think along these lines when a member here, thetruth, was adamant that in a story about the 'first female on the frontline' (which was a male...who had completed training as a male then suddenly decided they were actually a woman. At this time, women could not actually serve o n the frontline as the training to allow them to was still underway) the person was absolutely a woman. It rang alarm bells for me. And since, its cemented even more.

Theres also the bastardization of the word 'intersectional' and the constant demands to centre transwomen in feminism. Its demanding that male people be centred in feminism. Really.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You think most women haven’t experienced discrimination - I have on several occasions. It always has been and still is to a degree a part of every woman’s life. Discrimination is not exclusive to minority groups. It shows how much you know if that is what you are trying to say.

Its part of every mans life as well. We all get discriminated against at some point in our life. Its no big deal, we aren't victims. Its not constant.

Feminism isn't the issue, extremism is. Extreme feminism makes me embarrassed to be a woman and all I can say is, thank god they're a minority. The extreme feminists have ruined the very essence of what feminism is meant to be about. They've hijacked something good and made it into something that's now demonized by both men and women. I'm a feminist but I'm often embarrassed to claim that title.

When I hear women ranting about Barbie belittling women I want to bang these womens head together… its just a toy! When I read a bunch of women belittling men or claiming 'men don't know the awful time us women have. They don't know what its like to bleed or give birth', I just sigh and think, geez, you must hate being female.
This is meant to be about gender equality but sometimes it feels like its all about punishing men.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Okay, you haven't read my post at all, have you?

I'm saying that the idea of men seeing gender equality as an attack on themselves is something that is common to certain people in all majorities because the idea of equality those people have are warped. I'm not saying that women haven't faced discrimination.

Jesus Christ, Brillo. Please at least to attempt to read a post before you respond to it because nothing you have said has any relevance on what I have said at all.

Have and do still despite making up 50 % of the population in most counties. I don’t think there is any other single group that can say that as women have and are still the most discriminated against worldwide.

Also, many of those who you see as a discriminated minority in this country have not been, as well as have been, in a previous country - but members of both groups still continue to discriminate against other groups here.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Have and do still despite making up 50 % of the population in most counties. I don’t think there is any other single group that can say that as women have and are still the most discriminated against worldwide.

Also, many of those who you see as a discriminated minority in this country have not been, as well as have been, in a previous country - but members of both groups still continue to discriminate against other groups here.

Okay, you are refusing to read my posts, I'm not going to respond in future since you'll just ignore what I write anyway.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's about WOMENS equality. Men have been more than equal for a long time. And women don't need men to lead us on this. But we do need your support.

I honestly don't see how anything else you've said relates to what I said.

Equality is equality, by definition you need more than one component to equalise. "Women's equality" is a meaningless statement... Women's equality to what? Ducks? Bridges? Small single engined light aircraft?

Likewise, "more than equal" doesn't make anything because "more" negates the use of "equal". Have men historically had more than women, have been on the "privileged side" of an imbalance? Yes, there was an entire absense of equality...

I suppose putting it simply; you can't balance an equation that only has one side. Achieving equality will fundamentally involve cooperation... Failure to understand that - insistence on becoming incensed at the very suggestion ("how dare an oppressor try to have an opinion on how this works!!") - is already extremely close to halting progress and slamming it into reverse. I just hope people realise that before it's too late .

I fully support equality for all individuals. I fully accept that there are still many inequalities interwoven into society that affect that equality. But I completely reject the notion that "women en-masse", like some sort of homogenous hive-mind, are better positioned to understand and address those inequalities, than a collective of all individuals working cooperatively to achieve universal equality which would by definition achieve equality for women.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes. I have said this for a very long time now. The socialization is so obvious. You do not see transmen demanding entry into male areas, you see no transmen winning awards and such...transmen are basically invisible whilst transwomen are at the forefront screaming about unfairness and demanding everyone else buy into their religion.

Actually a bulk of transactivism comes across extremely MRA like to me too. And MRA types like to attach themselves to transactivism for obvious reasons. If it becomes law that any man is a woman, then thats all womens rights gone in one swoop. Part of the reason I am so against it. I kind of see a lot of transactivism as a fightback against women getting more equal. Its backlash, and the MRAs love it. Obviously not all transactivists are MRAs, but there is so much crossover its impossible to ignore.

Look...once I saw it I could not unsee it tbh

Spoiler:

Not all transactivists are like that obviously, but a hell of a lot are. These tend to be the same ones who believe in 'lady penis' and don't actually alter their bodies in any way, the ones who say that sex dysphoria is not needed to be trans...the more mental ones. They come across exactly like MRAs to me. Seems that some men have found a way to pushback against women getting equal. And its genius really..to attach yourself to a group of people who do generally require support and understanding.

I first started to think along these lines when a member here, thetruth, was adamant that in a story about the 'first female on the frontline' (which was a male...who had completed training as a male then suddenly decided they were actually a woman. At this time, women could not actually serve o n the frontline as the training to allow them to was still underway) the person was absolutely a woman. It rang alarm bells for me. And since, its cemented even more.

Thanks Vicky, now I can never unsee that either LOL...

I'm in total agreement with you on this issue. And yes, the last paragraph... how are women supposed to react to someone who's always been a man, still has a penis, decides he's now a woman and hey presto! He's suddenly declared the first woman on the Front Line. Meanwhile born women are still jumping through the hoops that men have set up, in order to even try to get as far as the front line.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have another theory, and I know this will be a bit unpopular and it is slightly off-topic, but here goes...

Whenever I've met a transsexual person, or see them on TV, I've been struck by how much less dramatic and loud the female to male transsexuals are. You really don't see them in the press, demanding their rights, crying "I'm a REAL man!". Male to female transsexuals, however, have been men all their lives and they are used to standing up and saying, right, this is what I think and you're going to listen.

A very good point.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thanks Vicky, now I can never unsee that either LOL...

I'm in total agreement with you on this issue. And yes, the last paragraph... how are women supposed to react to someone who's always been a man, still has a penis, decides he's now a woman and hey presto! He's suddenly declared the first woman on the Front Line. Meanwhile born women are still jumping through the hoops that men have set up, in order to even try to get as far as the front line.

Ridiculous is not a strong enough word. Men and women really need to be analysing why this is so rather than just listening to those that shout the loudest.

It seems to me that women are being discriminated against not only by straight men but transwomen too. Beyond reasoning.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Great post, and I think the bit in bold is very true of most discussions about equality. But yeah this really is what feminism is about for me, not necessarily needing to make big changes (in terms of laws and things) but reinforcing general values, and I think that's where the thoughts of "women already have rights so if they want more then they want to be more than equal" come in because it misunderstands that continued feminism isn't about more and more rights, like the rights are there because they need to be in order to get to a place of equal treatment, as the foundations of it I suppose, but equal treatment still isn't always happening.
As an example I used to help with the recruitment in a company I worked for and my boss would favour male applicants because she had sexist views about men being better workers (and also having to pay for womens maternity leave etc, it was a relatively small business so she would consider the potential costs of that) and really there is no way of stopping someone like that filtering applications accordingly to their prejudice, marking someone more harshly during an interview, etc etc. (I think this is a good example as well as to it not being a men vs women thing in terms of feminism.) She'd also be harsher in general to the female employees when they made mistakes. And equal rights laws being in place isn't actually going to change someone like that's attitudes.
And I think feminism should include areas where men receive poorer treatment than women as well since it's all part of the same thing which is essentially prejudice based on gender and that can come from both men and women, and be directed towards both men and women. There might be more of it directed towards women from men so there's generally more of a focus on that but that shouldn't be a reason to exclude any other issues that arise from gender inequality, like TS says it should be a cooperative thing.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Equality is equality, by definition you need more than one component to equalise. "Women's equality" is a meaningless statement... Women's equality to what? Ducks? Bridges? Small single engined light aircraft?

Likewise, "more than equal" doesn't make anything because "more" negates the use of "equal". Have men historically had more than women, have been on the "privileged side" of an imbalance? Yes, there was an entire absense of equality...

I suppose putting it simply; you can't balance an equation that only has one side. Achieving equality will fundamentally involve cooperation... Failure to understand that - insistence on becoming incensed at the very suggestion ("how dare an oppressor try to have an opinion on how this works!!") - is already extremely close to halting progress and slamming it into reverse. I just hope people realise that before it's too late .

I fully support equality for all individuals. I fully accept that there are still many inequalities interwoven into society that affect that equality. But I completely reject the notion that "women en-masse", like some sort of homogenous hive-mind, are better positioned to understand and address those inequalities, than a collective of all individuals working cooperatively to achieve universal equality which would by definition achieve equality for women.

Oh well, that's your view of feminism. And you've used some fairly colourful language and analogies, there, like:

* slamming it into reverse
They do this on the news.... going in reverse/slamming it into reverse.

*"how dare an oppressor try to have an opinion"
Haven't seen anyone except you say that.

* Achieving equality will fundamentally involve cooperation... Failure to understand that - insistence on becoming incensed at the very suggestion
No one fails to understand what you're claiming to understand. And no one is incensed. But were used to men using that kind of language when lecturing us on how many know just as well as women, what's best for them.

Fact is, we're not all ranting man-haters. But if we argue our opinions of Feminism, there is always a man to make a fuss.

[Vicky.]

Thing is, which area do men receive poorer treatment than women? I know the family courts are brought up a lot but thats not based on sex, it goes on who does the majority of childcare...which just usually happens to be the woman in most cases...so yes, women get custody in most cases. Like, if me and my husband divorced tomorrow, he would 'get the kids' because he gets up with them each morning, he takes them to school, he does most of the childcare.

Now if we were a more 'traditional' (read old fashioned ) family where I did the childcare and he worked, then I would probably 'get them' and would also generally get child support awarded (which is for the kids, not the parent)

Obviously if there has been abuse or something then who does the bulk of the childcare is disregarded though so that the kids are safe. But our family courts (not sure about in other countries, am talking about the UK) are definitely not this 'award custody to the female' type thing. Its about disrupting the childrens lives the least.


I am all for fighting for things where men are actually genuinely disadvantaged. Just it seems, I cannot actually think of one of these areas. I don't think anyone should be treat more or less favourably because of their sex. Though there are some areas of life where sex matters (things like sports, prisons...anywhere where biology is important)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Great post, and I think the bit in bold is very true of most discussions about equality. But yeah this really is what feminism is about for me, not necessarily needing to make big changes (in terms of laws and things) but reinforcing general values, and I think that's where the thoughts of "women already have rights so if they want more then they want to be more than equal" come in because it misunderstands that continued feminism isn't about more and more rights, like the rights are there because they need to be in order to get to a place of equal treatment, as the foundations of it I suppose, but equal treatment still isn't always happening.
As an example I used to help with the recruitment in a company I worked for and my boss would favour male applicants because she had sexist views about men being better workers (and also having to pay for womens maternity leave etc, it was a relatively small business so she would consider the potential costs of that) and really there is no way of stopping someone like that filtering applications accordingly to their prejudice, marking someone more harshly during an interview, etc etc. (I think this is a good example as well as to it not being a men vs women thing in terms of feminism.) She'd also be harsher in general to the female employees when they made mistakes. And equal rights laws being in place isn't actually going to change someone like that's attitudes.
And I think feminism should include areas where men receive poorer treatment than women as well since it's all part of the same thing which is essentially prejudice based on gender and that can come from both men and women, and be directed towards both men and women. There might be more of it directed towards women from men so there's generally more of a focus on that but that shouldn't be a reason to exclude any other issues that arise from gender inequality, like TS says it should be a cooperative thing.

Yeah women can be just as guilty of the sexist attitudes as men 100%.

Oh another example of the negative stereotyping being enforced and validated is when we're driving and on the journey we might come across 4 drivers who will have done something to annoy Gav and 2 of them might be male and the other two female, when it's the male driver it's because they're an idiot but when it's a female it's because she's a female. It's this kind of thing that keeps all these stereotypes and attitudes going in society.

I've seen a few people say that we shouldn't be thinking like we have a hive mind and that we're all individuals etc which I don't disagree with, infact it's absolutely what I believe on a personal level, this is why I get so annoyed about everyday sexism and the pushing of these negative stereotypes

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Oh well, that's your view of feminism. And you've used some fairly colourful language and analogies, there, like:

* slamming it into reverse
They do this on the news.... going in reverse/slamming it into reverse.

*"how dare an oppressor try to have an opinion"
Haven't seen anyone except you say that.

* Achieving equality will fundamentally involve cooperation... Failure to understand that - insistence on becoming incensed at the very suggestion
No one fails to understand what you're claiming to understand. And no one is incensed. But were used to men using that kind of language when lecturing us on how many know just as well as women, what's best for them.

Fact is, we're not all ranting man-haters. But if we argue our opinions of Feminism, there is always a man to make a fuss.

"No one" fails to understand this? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has, but the claim that "no one" fails to understand and especially that "no one" is incensed and combative is clearly false.

The rest of it, is simply a case of you trying to to dismiss my opinions of this "women's only subject" because I'm male. Which is sexist, divisive and unequal, whether that fits the narrative or not. You're supposedly seeking equality whilst promoting exclusion, it's ridiculous.