[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't doubt that transsexual people face problems in their lives. I mean, living with dysphoria about your sexed body must be horrific. But the experiences of transsexual males (transwomen..its easier to use sex to describe what I am talking about) is NOT the same as womens. Of course not all women have the same experiences, but the one thing we all have in common is actually being female. Transwomen are not female.

The thing is, I think perhaps more weight is put on this than is actually needed or necessary... There's been a lot of social research done that shows pretty conclusively that out experiences of life / what we have in common are far more liked to "class / wealth" than ANY other factor. So for example... A working class woman has FAR more in common, both in terms of interest and experience, with a working class man than she does with an upper-middle class woman.

This extends all the way to the top and what is all too often overlooked in feminism and causes a lot of the confusion. There's a lot of feminist rhetoric about "the patriarchy"; that women have been historically oppressed by men. Well, no. Women have been oppressed by WEALTHY, POWERFUL men and the oppression is far more linked to the wealth than the gender of the oppressor. Generalising it out even more; it basically comes down to the fact that everyone has been oppressed by a very small number of powerful, privileged individuals who happen to mostly have been white men. This message has gotten confused somewhere, and now there's this idea that "all men are oppressors", "all white people are oppressors". It's just a totally inaccurate view of society. The vast majority of men, and white folks, past and present, have never had a sniff of that sort of power or wealth.

But then, that's what all of these squabbles are still about. Socially engineered "battles" because in the wake of the last recession, people started looking around, and noticed those people, and got angry about it, and we ALMOST managed to focus briefly on where the real oppression is and always has been... But, they have the means and ability to distract us back to ground level petty squabbles and so that's what happened. Black Lives Matter happened, the celebrity nudes leak happened, Brexit, Trump, school shootings, historic sex scandals were outed, men and women went to war, feminist movements and trans movements went to war... We forgot about "the 0.01%", that's yesterday's news... And the real oppressors rubbed their hands together and walked away.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, I think perhaps more weight is put on this than is actually needed or necessary... There's been a lot of social research done that shows pretty conclusively that out experiences of life / what we have in common are far more liked to "class / wealth" than ANY other factor. So for example... A working class woman has FAR more in common, both in terms of interest and experience, with a working class man than she does with an upper-middle class woman.

This extends all the way to the top and what is all too often overlooked in feminism and causes a lot of the confusion. There's a lot of feminist rhetoric about "the patriarchy"; that women have been historically oppressed by men. Well, no. Women have been oppressed by WEALTHY, POWERFUL men and the oppression is far more linked to the wealth than the gender of the oppressor. Generalising it out even more; it basically comes down to the fact that everyone has been oppressed by a very small number of powerful, privileged individuals who happen to mostly have been white men. This message has gotten confused somewhere, and now there's this idea that "all men are oppressors", "all white people are oppressors". It's just a totally inaccurate view of society. The vast majority of men, and white folks, past and present, have never had a sniff of that sort of power or wealth.

But then, that's what all of these squabbles are still about. Socially engineered "battles" because in the wake of the last recession, people started looking around, and noticed those people, and got angry about it, and we ALMOST managed to focus briefly on where the real oppression is and always has been... But, they have the means and ability to distract us back to ground level petty squabbles and so that's what happened. Black Lives Matter happened, the celebrity nudes leak happened, Brexit, Trump, school shootings, historic sex scandals were outed, men and women went to war, feminist movements and trans movements went to war... We forgot about "the 0.01%", that's yesterday's news... And the real oppressors rubbed their hands together and walked away.

With respect TS I don’t think that is exactly the case. We know those men with money and power at the top, a small minority, are pulling the strings over all aspects of our lives, men and women alike - but for a man to suggest that women are not generally oppressed by ordinary working-class men and only by men in power and that they are not even aware of it is quite patronising. Many women are oppressed by men they are in relationships with, men they work with and other areas of their ordinary everyday lives - what about the huge impact domestic abuse has within working-class families - how many women are killed by their partners every werk in this country and live in fear.

No-one has said all men are oppressors but the evidence is there that most women have experienced oppression and assault at the hands of working-class men at some time or other. For example Women have to be cautious and fearful about walking home on their own late at night - and it isn’t generally men in power they have to worry about just some low-life scumbag hiding in the shadows. If this isn’t oppression controlling what women can and can’t do I don’t know what is. Women have been made to feel for years that they have to watch what they wear for fear of sexual assault and being accused of asking for it - what is that if not oppression. Women from time in memorial have often been belittled, put in their place and their opinions dismissecd by ordinary working-class men around them.

There are many examples of how womens’ lives are oppressed by your average Joe and I bet most women know exactly what I’m talking about so for you to imply womens’ experiences of oppression are somehow misplaced or misunderstood is lacking experience of what it is like to be a woman out there in the real world.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

With respect TS I don’t think that is exactly the case. We know those men with money and power at the top, a small minority, are pulling the strings over all aspects of our lives, men and women alike - but for a man to suggest that women are not generally oppressed by ordinary working-class men and only by men in power and that they are not even aware of it is quite patronising. Many women are oppressed by men they are in relationships with, men they work with and other areas of their ordinary everyday lives - what about the huge impact domestic abuse has within working-class families - how many women are killed by their partners every werk in this country and live in fear.

No-one has said all men are oppressors but the evidence is there that most women have experienced oppression and assault at the hands of working-class men at some time or other. For example Women have to be cautious and fearful about walking home on their own late at night - and it isn’t generally men in power they have to worry about just some low-life scumbag hiding in the shadows. If this isn’t oppression controlling what women can and can’t do I don’t know what is. Women have been made to feel for years that they have to watch what they wear for fear of sexual assault and being accused of asking for it - what is that if not oppression.

There are many examples of how womens’ lives are oppressed by your average Joe so and I bet most women know exactly what I’m talking about so for you to imply womens’ experiences of oppression are somehow misplaced or misunderstood is lacking experience of what it is like to be a woman out there in the real world.

.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

With respect TS I don’t think that is exactly the case. We know those men with money and power at the top, a small minority, are pulling the strings over all aspects of our lives, men and women alike - but for a man to suggest that women are not generally oppressed by ordinary working-class men and only by men in power and that they are not even aware of it is quite patronising. Many women are oppressed by men they are in relationships with, men they work with and other areas of their ordinary everyday lives - what about the huge impact domestic abuse has within working-class families - how many women are killed by their partners every werk in this country and live in fear.

No-one has said all men are oppressors but the evidence is there that most women have experienced oppression and assault at the hands of working-class men at some time or other. For example Women have to be cautious and fearful about walking home on their own late at night - and it isn’t generally men in power they have to worry about just some low-life scumbag hiding in the shadows. If this isn’t oppression controlling what women can and can’t do I don’t know what is. Women have been made to feel for years that they have to watch what they wear for fear of sexual assault and being accused of asking for it - what is that if not oppression.

There are many examples of how womens’ lives are oppressed by your average Joe so and I bet most women know exactly what I’m talking about so for you to imply womens’ experiences of oppression are somehow misplaced or misunderstood is lacking experience of what it is like to be a woman out there in the real world.

Yup, exactly. Nothing else to add really.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yup, exactly. Nothing else to add really.

You could add that women walking home could just as well be assaulted by other women..like that poor girl who lost her life after 6 girls jumped her...
Or that a lesbian relationship has just as much chance of having one partner attack the other as a male n female relationship has.....


Just playing devils advocate on this one.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You could add that women walking home could just as well be assaulted by other women..like that poor girl ejo lost her life after 6 girls jumped her...
Or that a lesbian relationship has just as much chance of having one partner attack the other as a male n female relationship has.....


Just playing devils advocate on this one.

Well yes, women can be attacked by other women, I did not deny that? Its just very very rare compared to attacks by men.

The part about a person in a lesbian relationship having just as much chance of being attacked as a male and female relationship is just entirely false. There is a small risk yes, but again nowhere near the risk of heterosexual relationships. And the 2 women who are actually killed by their partners per week are almost always killed by men, not other women.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, women can be attacked by other women, I did not deny that? Its just very very rare compared to attacks by men.

The part about a person in a lesbian relationship having just as much chance of being attacked as a male and female relationship is just entirely false. There is a small risk yes, but again nowhere near the risk of heterosexual relationships. And the 2 women who are actually killed by their partners per week are almost always killed by men, not other women.

I would like to see the stats on the percentages of male n female relationship abuse compared to lesbian ones...2 people a week....but if you compare that with the amount of relationships that there are featuring male and female to female n female it is obviously going to be higher.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I would like to see the stats on the percentages of male n female relationship abuse compared to lesbian ones...2 people a week....but if you compare that with the amount of relationships that there are featuring male and female to female n female it is obviously going to be higher.

Sorry it seems you might be right on that one actually.

Domestic abuse in the lesbian, bisexual, gay and transgender community is a serious issue. About 25% of LGBT people suffer through violent or threatening relationships with partners or ex-partners which is about the same rates as in as domestic abuse against heterosexual women. As in opposite-gendered couples, the problem is underreported. Those involved in same-gender abuse are often afraid of revealing their sexual orientation or the nature of their relationship.

http://www.endthefear.co.uk/same-sex-domestic-abuse/

But that does include gay men in relationships too.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

With respect TS I don’t think that is exactly the case. We know those men with money and power at the top, a small minority, are pulling the strings over all aspects of our lives, men and women alike - but for a man to suggest that women are not generally oppressed by ordinary working-class men and only by men in power and that they are not even aware of it is quite patronising. Many women are oppressed by men they are in relationships with, men they work with and other areas of their ordinary everyday lives - what about the huge impact domestic abuse has within working-class families - how many women are killed by their partners every werk in this country and live in fear.

No-one has said all men are oppressors but the evidence is there that most women have experienced oppression and assault at the hands of working-class men at some time or other. For example Women have to be cautious and fearful about walking home on their own late at night - and it isn’t generally men in power they have to worry about just some low-life scumbag hiding in the shadows. If this isn’t oppression controlling what women can and can’t do I don’t know what is. Women have been made to feel for years that they have to watch what they wear for fear of sexual assault and being accused of asking for it - what is that if not oppression. Women from time in memorial have often been belittled, put in their place and their opinions dismissecd by ordinary working-class men around them.

There are many examples of how womens’ lives are oppressed by your average Joe and I bet most women know exactly what I’m talking about so for you to imply womens’ experiences of oppression are somehow misplaced or misunderstood is lacking experience of what it is like to be a woman out there in the real world.

Perfectly put.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

With respect TS I don’t think that is exactly the case. We know those men with money and power at the top, a small minority, are pulling the strings over all aspects of our lives, men and women alike - but for a man to suggest that women are not generally oppressed by ordinary working-class men and only by men in power and that they are not even aware of it is quite patronising. Many women are oppressed by men they are in relationships with, men they work with and other areas of their ordinary everyday lives - what about the huge impact domestic abuse has within working-class families - how many women are killed by their partners every werk in this country and live in fear.

No-one has said all men are oppressors but the evidence is there that most women have experienced oppression and assault at the hands of working-class men at some time or other. For example Women have to be cautious and fearful about walking home on their own late at night - and it isn’t generally men in power they have to worry about just some low-life scumbag hiding in the shadows. If this isn’t oppression controlling what women can and can’t do I don’t know what is. Women have been made to feel for years that they have to watch what they wear for fear of sexual assault and being accused of asking for it - what is that if not oppression. Women from time in memorial have often been belittled, put in their place and their opinions dismissecd by ordinary working-class men around them.

There are many examples of how womens’ lives are oppressed by your average Joe and I bet most women know exactly what I’m talking about so for you to imply womens’ experiences of oppression are somehow misplaced or misunderstood is lacking experience of what it is like to be a woman out there in the real world.

Excellent post.