[MTVN]

I have issues with it because I think it devalues life and like kizzy says it could be open to exploitation

I also find it hard to deny someone the right to choose but then that carries it's own problems with how you can judge whether someone is capable of making that decision and how can you be sure that their choice now will always be their choice.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I have issues with it because I think it devalues life and like kizzy says it could be open to exploitation

I also find it hard to deny someone the right to choose but then that carries it's own problems with how you can judge whether someone is capable of making that decision and how can you be sure that their choice now will always be their choice.

life has no value its just life. Its easy to create a life and easy to take a life

It seems to work fine on the continent

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

life has no value its just life. Its easy to create a life and easy to take a life

It seems to work fine on the continent

Life has value to the individual and those who know and love them

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Life has value to the individual and those who know and love them

well in that case what a great argument for allowing them to value how they die

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well in that case what a great argument for allowing them to value how they die

Well yes I agree with that part (as long as it's not open to abuse of course)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I have issues with it because I think it devalues life and like kizzy says it could be open to exploitation

I also find it hard to deny someone the right to choose but then that carries it's own problems with how you can judge whether someone is capable of making that decision and how can you be sure that their choice now will always be their choice.

I don't think either has to be hugely problematic... you could attach some fairly strict criteria i.e. only months left to live anyway, proof that there's unmanageable pain or discomfort, and you could also have it so that both the person requesting it and the medical team surrounding that person have to sign off on it. I don't think the idea of it being significantly exploited in that situation is particularly realistic.

As for the value of life stuff... I dunno. I think people romanticize death. Too many peaceful bedside goodbyes in Hollywood movies with a single tear rolling down the cheeks of loved ones as an old, suspiciously rosy-cheeked person falls asleep with a little smile.

My grandmother died when I was 8 and was cared for in our house in her last months and it was awful. It was bed sores, vomit and confusion as her mind disappeared long before her body, and I have a memory seared in my brain of being able to hear her writhing and shrieking within her final half hour. It was an absolute ****ing horror show.

My mum died 4 years ago and yeah... it was worse. Her main cause of death was liver failure, but basically all of her organs shut down. Her limbs were purple and had swollen to 3x their normal size with oedema. Her immune system had shut down and a simple cold sore had eaten away half of her upper lip and there was dying flesh right round to her cheek. She was mostly unconscious - but would occasionally "gasp awake" for a few confused minutes with a look of real, and complete, terror on her face. She was hallucinating and delirious, but she also knew what was happening to her.

"Devalues life", indeed. I sometimes wonder if the people who are against these things actually realise what an undignified ****-show real death actually is. There is no value there. It's like a cruel joke tacked onto the end of a life. To deny people a way to avoid that out of the (irrational) fear that people are going to somehow use it to bump off their elderly relatives is just madness.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think either has to be hugely problematic... you could attach some fairly strict criteria i.e. only months left to live anyway, proof that there's unmanageable pain or discomfort, and you could also have it so that both the person requesting it and the medical team surrounding that person have to sign off on it. I don't think the idea of it being significantly exploited in that situation is particularly realistic.

As for the value of life stuff... I dunno. I think people romanticize death. Too many peaceful bedside goodbyes in Hollywood movies with a single tear rolling down the cheeks of loved ones as an old, suspiciously rosy-cheeked person falls asleep with a little smile.

My grandmother died when I was 8 and was cared for in our house in her last months and it was awful. It was bed sores, vomit and confusion as her mind disappeared long before her body, and I have a memory seared in my brain of being able to hear her writhing and shrieking within her final half hour. It was an absolute ****ing horror show.

My mum died 4 years ago and yeah... it was worse. Her main cause of death was liver failure, but basically all of her organs shut down. Her limbs were purple and had swollen to 3x their normal size with oedema. Her immune system had shut down and a simple cold sore had eaten away half of her upper lip and there was dying flesh right round to her cheek. She was mostly unconscious - but would occasionally "gasp awake" for a few confused minutes with a look of real, and complete, terror on her face. She was hallucinating and delirious, but she also knew what was happening to her.

"Devalues life", indeed. I sometimes wonder if the people who are against these things actually realise what an undignified ****-show real death actually is. There is no value there. It's like a cruel joke tacked onto the end of a life. To deny people a way to avoid that out of the (irrational) fear that people are going to somehow use it to bump off their elderly relatives is just madness.

Yeah spot on. I wouldn't like my loved ones to remember me in that kind of way and I would like some sort of dignity in death

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah spot on. I wouldn't like my loved ones to remember me in that kind of way and I would like some sort of dignity in death

People say "you remember the good times" but for me that's been a lie. When I remember my mum it comes with that attached image of a yellow, swollen zombie gasping in a hospital bed. Maybe I need therapy or something .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

People say "you remember the good times" but for me that's been a lie. When I remember my mum it comes with that attached image of a yellow, swollen zombie gasping in a hospital bed. Maybe I need therapy or something .

Yeah, I never bought into lines like that either when it comes to death. When I was 18 my best friend died and I really didn't want to see her body, my reasoning was I didn't want to picture her dead everytime I remembered her and my dad kept pushing and pushing for me to go in the funeral home because I'd regret it and I almost did but turned back at the door. I'm so glad to this day that I didn't do it. Everyone said how peaceful she looked etc but her sister said to me afterwards that she wishes she never saw her because she didn't look like her at all and now she can't get that image out of her head

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

People say "you remember the good times" but for me that's been a lie. When I remember my mum it comes with that attached image of a yellow, swollen zombie gasping in a hospital bed. Maybe I need therapy or something .

Yes. I agree with this for sure. I have so many happy memories of my uncle..mainly from childhood days. I went to see him a few days before he died and I no longer really remember the good stuff, I just remember him clutching at his throat doing what I now know to be 'the death rattle' and looking like a corpse already

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think either has to be hugely problematic... you could attach some fairly strict criteria i.e. only months left to live anyway, proof that there's unmanageable pain or discomfort, and you could also have it so that both the person requesting it and the medical team surrounding that person have to sign off on it. I don't think the idea of it being significantly exploited in that situation is particularly realistic.

As for the value of life stuff... I dunno. I think people romanticize death. Too many peaceful bedside goodbyes in Hollywood movies with a single tear rolling down the cheeks of loved ones as an old, suspiciously rosy-cheeked person falls asleep with a little smile.

My grandmother died when I was 8 and was cared for in our house in her last months and it was awful. It was bed sores, vomit and confusion as her mind disappeared long before her body, and I have a memory seared in my brain of being able to hear her writhing and shrieking within her final half hour. It was an absolute ****ing horror show.

My mum died 4 years ago and yeah... it was worse. Her main cause of death was liver failure, but basically all of her organs shut down. Her limbs were purple and had swollen to 3x their normal size with oedema. Her immune system had shut down and a simple cold sore had eaten away half of her upper lip and there was dying flesh right round to her cheek. She was mostly unconscious - but would occasionally "gasp awake" for a few confused minutes with a look of real, and complete, terror on her face. She was hallucinating and delirious, but she also knew what was happening to her.

"Devalues life", indeed. I sometimes wonder if the people who are against these things actually realise what an undignified ****-show real death actually is. There is no value there. It's like a cruel joke tacked onto the end of a life. To deny people a way to avoid that out of the (irrational) fear that people are going to somehow use it to bump off their elderly relatives is just madness.

There's the issue... as a rule medical professionals sign up to save lives, they are not in the business of killing people.
I know it's hard I watched my own father get eaten away at by cancer in my mums living room over a period of 3 months in his late 60s.

What individuals do is up to them but a managed decline via pain relief is as dignified as is possible medically, we can't be passing the burden of assisted suicide/dying onto anyone else.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There's the issue... as a rule medical professionals sign up to save lives, they are not in the business of killing people.
I know it's hard I watched my own father get eaten away at by cancer in my mums living room over a period of 3 months in his late 60s.

What individuals do is up to them but a managed decline via pain relief is as dignified as is possible medically, we can't be passing the burden of assisted suicide/dying onto anyone else.

Do they? Many do, sure, but I'd say that amore accurate role of a medical professional is to help people live as comfortably as possible for as long as possible... it's about quality of life, not "living as long as possible". The "rule" is to do no harm, but there's certainly scope for debate over whether or not it's more harmful to help someone to die quickly and painlessly, or to have them endure high levels of suffering for weeks or months only to die anyway.

It doesn't need to be a case of forcing or passing the buck either; it would be fairly simple to allow medical professionals to opt in / out of being involved in euthanasia. I believe that there have been studies showing that 50% or more of doctors are in favour of euthanasia in extreme / end-of-life circumstances.