[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I wouldn't mind joining a campaign for proper contained unisex facilities. However I can fight against opening our current (pitiful) areas up to being unisex at the same time

I think you may find though, that transactivists are very very much against this idea as a compromise. They do not think that there should be any compromise as 'transwomen are women!!!111' and that women who object to male people in their spaces are just transphobic bigots who are no better than nazis and deserve to be punched And its transactivists/trans pressure groups who are influencing political parties on this.

Where do you see all this stuff, Vicky? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I can't say it's generally something I ever see or have experienced. Maybe we just frequent different sites and that's what it is, but from my perspective at least it seems a little blown out of proportion?

I disagree with screaming transphobic at people, that's not helpful...but equally I do see transwomen as women. The thing is though, perhaps this forum mirrors the wider debate, in that there has to be a little give and take on both sides? To put it another way, if some transactivists feel as though their very existence is being minimised (in the same way some females feel the same) - is it not easy to to see why they'd retaliate in the same way? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like it could just be a retaliation, and then it becomes a vicious circle where everyone hates each other and there's no productive and respectful discussions amongst either side to reach some kind of conclusion.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well this is why I do not think that anyones birth certificate should be changed (unless they are actually intersex, which is bugger all to do with trans)

A refuge could not ask for ID in every case, granted...but again its usually extremely easy to tell what sex someone is. And honestly, if someone is trans and actually passes, theres really not that much that can be done about it if they insist on deceiving people when the service is designated for single SEX

I assume prisons get actual full records before you are put in one. I am very much hoping that even the ridiculous 'revised' birth certificates (which are pointless, as a birth certificate is a historical document, so quite why people as adults can change them to say the opposite sex, I don't know) there is some kind of record somewhere. if not that would be rather dangerous really. But single sex is a hell of a lot easier to actually stick to in prisons. I would guess that the strip searching and such would end any questions...if for some reason prisons are not in full possession of all data about you.

I think a trans wing, or two up and down the country would suffice, for those who are in transition. Or you know, better security in prisons anyway, which would keep all safer, even gender non conforming males.

I meant more policing it in terms of entry into toilets/changing rooms, but I see what you mean.

The prisons/refuges one is a difficult issue as I mentioned earlier, and I would probably lean towards the trans wing suggestion you made. I think the overarching concern that needs to be addressed though is how prisons are actually sites of enormous violence (be it directly or indirectly, from other inmates or corrupt staff) against marginalised people, and yes that includes women. The prison industrial complex is so problematic on so many levels that it needs a full and frank reassessment, and really it's beyond the scope of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The logical conclusion of having services that are actually based on sex would mean that all trans people had to have surgery?

Yes! If correctly corresponding genitalia is the prerequisite of entering a sex-segregated area, then is the logical conclusion not that any and ALL trans people MUST have sex reassignment surgery in order to enter them?

I'll expand on this more below for clarification:

Originally Posted by Vicky.

You seem to be using transsexual but talking about transgender. Its not the term I object to, its this whole...oh I am trans but do not actually have sex dysphoria and will not modify any part of myself but will insist I am actually a woman rubbish...along with crossdressers and such being under the 'umbrella'
Maybe there can be a campaign aimed at stopping men from committing violence or abusing other male people who do not fit 'gendered expectations' or follow the correct stereotypes?

I genuinely mean transexuals. I realise there's a bit of conflation in that the term assumes people who are or will have be having SRS, but there are genuinely trans people who have no desire to modify their body in any way. Not people who are just making it up to be ~cool~ or whatever (as I think you're referring to), but people who've lived for years or decades as the gender of their choice without having surgery. I chose not to use 'trans' or 'transgender' because I thought you'd make the point that you don't believe in them anyway.

Maybe I've got this wrong, but I could've sworn you've made the point or at least agreed before that encouraging people to have surgery is actually quite problematic? And that really, people should be allowed to live however they like without feeling like they HAVE to modify their body (unless they really want to)? Which is what my point is - if the rule is that segregated areas are separated anatomically, that basically means trans people who have for years never had any desire to have surgery, and have been using female areas, must now do so in order to continue?

Here's another interesting question for you - if you don't believe that anyone can truly change sex, and don't wish to have penises in female-only spaces, why would someone having sex reassignment surgery be almost a cast iron guarantee that they wouldn't attack someone? If they're biologically still the same person, and are predisposed to do that - what difference does not having a penis make (other than the obvious legal implications)?

I completely agree with the latter part however! We need to completely break down gender and toxic masculinity.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

And people do not percieve one another on 'gender presentation'...they can generally tell regardless of 'gender presentation' (ie. stereotypes followed) what sex someone is.

I'm not sure I agree with that, with the exception of cleavage (which varies a hell of a lot) how can you perceive one's sex without seeing what's underneath their trousers?

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Any male person being able to access (current) female areas. Thats my objection.

The fact that any man, not just transsexual women would be able to access female spaces.

But they can do that now though? Why would the law put off a predator entering a female-only space? Criminals aren't interested in the law or signs above toilet doors, they'll do whatever they like. And any trans person that passes but hasn't had surgery is already doing so?

To be fair, I don't completely understand the proposed changes to the law so maybe I've misunderstood the implications - but that's just what it seems like to me.