[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

Some excellent points BOTS.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

Like you I voted remain because of better the devil you know and some of the arguments didn't ring through, and I am not that opposed to Brexit either, I would just like to have been given truths and facts rather than a load of hogwash. I think the Irish border is a dealbreaker and will see us staying in the customs union, I can't see any way around it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

[Toy Soldier]

So basically, in 40 years time when the majority of people who voted for Brexit will be dead and buried, we will MAYBE SORT OF be able to see if things are KIND OF ok, except totally different anyway... and if things are good, any remaining Brexit voters can say "See! This is cos of Brexit, it was right after all!"... and if things are NOT good they can say "Nothing to do with Brexit, that was decades ago and the world is a totally different place now".

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

We don’t need to be pessimistic - we need to be realistic. You are not an expert on Brexit and thinking the worse does not make you right. It is simply your pessimistic opinion. Wallow in that all you like - just don’t expect the rest of us too. It

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Fair points Jack, but I have met Nigel Farage numerous times and have also found him always friendly, ultra-civil and polite, sincere, very intelligent and knowledgeable, and very approachable, but such DIRECT personal experience would not sway any anti-Farage members on here to change their dislike of him.

Also, I agree that PEACEFUL protests ARE a part of 'Democracy In Action' but, experience has shown us - time and time again - that these protests are anything but peaceful, and that is down to the Anti-Democratic factions which are behind these protests, the Political Agitators employed by them to take control of the way in which the protests develop ensuing violence and anarchy, and the mindless unknowing sheep who go along with the protests.

I would also argue that Democracy In Action could also be defined as accepting State Protocol.

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...



How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

No Jack democracy doesn’t begin and end at the ballot box - but we had a democratic vote. Protesting to overturn that vote because the vote didn’t go your way is undemocratic - how many times do I have to explain that.

What are these people expecting to happen - that they manage to overturn that vote, by whatever deceitful means, and finally get their way - is that your idea of democracy! What if people then protest against that - where does it stop. The vote has been made - and cannot be interfered with until it goes the ‘right’ way - now that would be the very worst kind of undemocratic rule now wouldn’t it!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's going to have a negative impact and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) nor will blaming people who simply haven't gotten on board with it. Good intentions and pretending everything is fine won't stave off the inevitable and not liking how things are won't speed it up either.

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

Another detailed and very informative post Kirk! Well said!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

If I said anything like that, I'd get thinly veiled attack threads demanding my head.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

We don’t need to be pessimistic - we need to be realistic. You are not an expert on Brexit and thinking the worse does not make you right. It is simply your pessimistic opinion. Wallow in that all you like - just don’t expect the rest of us too. It

Repeating what I said and positioning it as an attack on me isn't an argument, Brillo.

Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it, if I said anything like that to you, you'd be screaming about how I'm trying to suppress your opinion.

Most experts across the spectrum agree that Brexit is not going to go well, I'll believe them over ignoring likelihoods that don't benefit my views.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

And on the other side press barons like Murdoch, Rothermere and the Barclay brothers (and people they sponsor/employ). All with cosy tax arrangements or not living in this country at all.
At least the people you quoted have thrown their lot with the country, unlike for example Dyson who moved his production to Malaysia.
Sorry, Kirk, but if Putin and Trump both think Brexit is a good thing, alarm bells should ring even in Brexiters ears.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If I said anything like that, I'd get thinly veiled attack threads demanding my head.

I'm sorry Dezzy but I do not understand why you have a problem with ANY of my post.

I am not insulting or being personal but merely stating my opinion based on my perception of your posts and I even stated; "In my opinion".

Your posts on Brexit are not only ALWAYS arrogantly dismissive of the viewpoints of any other member where those viewpoints do not align with your own but also dismissive of any facts such members may state in order to support their viewpoint.

You are NOT an authority on Brexit or the EU Dezzy and have no monopoly on what is true or factual ONLY an opinion based on the same information which is out there which anyone can access.

I do not know your age but I would guess that you have not even the benefit of Direct Experience gained by having lived in the UK BEFORE that moralless deceitful liar Ted Heath conned us into the 'Common Market' which became the EU.

In your response to the post of Brillopad, you said:

"Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it"

Well, I am similarly entitled.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

And on the other side press barons like Murdoch, Rothermere and the Barclay brothers (and people they sponsor/employ). All with cosy tax arrangements or not living in this country at all.
At least the people you quoted have thrown their lot with the country, unlike for example Dyson who moved his production to Malaysia.
Sorry, Kirk, but if Putin and Trump both think Brexit is a good thing, alarm bells should ring even in Brexiters ears.

Sorry Twosugars, but Murdoch, Rothmere, the Barclay Brothers and Dyson do NOT receive Tax-Payers hard earned money at a rate of £300 per day (as much as a lot of hardworking people earn in a full week) nor do they sit in the House of Lords, and nor do they hold any direct power to thwart the legitimate decisions of a Democratically elected Government for their own individual AND collective purposes.

And 'thrown their lot in with the country' is just what they have NOT done, which is the whole essence of my post - they are LOYAL to their EU Paymasters NOT the UK populace or Government.

As for Trump and Putin, perhaps they regard Brexit as a good idea because it may well suit THEIR objectives, but the fact that have expressed such a view does not ring any alarm bells with me - not like the alarm bells which are triggered EVERY time Corbyn or Abbot open their Marxist mouths.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Repeating what I said and positioning it as an attack on me isn't an argument, Brillo.

Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it, if I said anything like that to you, you'd be screaming about how I'm trying to suppress your opinion.

Most experts across the spectrum agree that Brexit is not going to go well, I'll believe them over ignoring likelihoods that don't benefit my views.

MOST experts - is that so. Maybe you believe that because you only open your ears to those saying what you want to hear. Just a thought!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

MOST experts - is that so. Maybe you believe that because you only open your ears to those saying what you want to hear. Just a thought!

'Most Experts' who have a VESTED INTEREST in Remaining in the EU.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sorry Twosugars, but Murdoch, Rothmere, the Barclay Brothers and Dyson do NOT receive Tax-Payers hard earned money at a rate of £300 per day (as much as a lot of hardworking people earn in a full week) nor do they sit in the House of Lords, and nor do they hold any direct power to thwart the legitimate decisions of a Democratically elected Government for their own individual AND collective purposes.

As for Trump and Putin, perhaps they regard Brexit as a good idea because it may well suit THEIR objectives, but the fact that have expressed such a view does not ring any alarm bells with me - not like the alarm bells which are triggered EVERY time Corbyn or Abbot open their Marxist mouths.

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

[bitontheslide]

Brexit will be neither good nor bad. It will simply be a new framework that people will work and live within. We had to adapt many times at huge expense to meet EU regulations. Many times those regulations resulted in personal hardship for individuals and for companies. This is life, people adapt to survive as they have always done and will always do

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

THere is a valid reason why he is disliked by some and it has nothing to do with being opinionated and a mod. There are other mods who are also both of those things - so with respect you really shouldn’t pass comment on something you are clearly not aware of!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

I'm aware of Murdoch's sway with certain politicians and it is unacceptable but that happens with wealthy influential figures on both sides of the Left and Right of politics and has ALWAYS gone on, but I maintain that Peers on public money should NOT have any power to vote on any motion where there is a Conflict of Interest.

As for Dezzy - My response was EXCLUSIVELY concerned with his posts on Brexit and NOTHING at all to do with anything else Twosugars.

I am not one for reopening old wounds.

That has been put to bed.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

THere is a valid reason why he is disliked by some and it has nothing to do with being opinionated and a mod. There are other mods who are also both of those things - so with respect you really shouldn’t pass comment on something you are clearly not aware of!

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm aware of Murdoch's sway with certain politicians and it is unacceptable but that happens with wealthy influential figures on both sides of the Left and Right of politics and has ALWAYS gone on, but I maintain that Peers on public money should NOT have any power to vote on any motion where there is a Conflict of Interest.

As for Dezzy - My response was EXCLUSIVELY concerned with his posts on Brexit and NOTHING at all to do with anything else Twosugars.

I am not one for reopening old wounds.

That has been put to bed.

Ok, I'll drop it then.

Kirk, we agree on the issue of undue influence.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Ok, I'll drop it then.

Kirk, we agree on the issue of undue influence.

We certainly do Twosugars. I just wish that we could do something about it but we cannot.

[jaxie]

I find claims that the majority object to Trump as a bit bizarre as no one can really speak for the majority, only a national poll could do that.

How people personally feel about him is kind of irrelevant anyway, he is surprisingly reaping results on the world stage. Everyone should be grateful for North Korea's bum at the talks table. Trump got him there.

And Brexit seems to have found it's way in too, with regard the 'experts', are these the same people who told us the world would end the day after a leave vote? It didn't happen. No one has a crystal ball to the future and there is no gexample of a similar situation to point at so any 'expert' take on what will happen is pure speculation.

Once we have left the EU life will go on regardless, the fear is pretty pointless. For me the idea if staying in an organisation who created laws and rules for us that we had no say in for forty years is much more frightening. As is being handcuffed and gagged by our own politicals for 40 years by signing on to a political experiment we never sanctioned as a nation. Frightening and outrageous.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I find claims that the majority object to Trump as a bit bizarre as no one can really speak for the majority, only a national poll could do that.

How people personally feel about him is kind of irrelevant anyway, he is surprisingly reaping results on the world stage. Everyone should be grateful for North Korea's bum at the talks table. Trump got him there.

I'd say Trump is sort of "doing an ISIS" with a lot of these things to be honest. That is to say... things happen, for a variety of reasons, and Trump takes credit for it (like ISIS taking credit for every small scale terrorist attack when most have nothing to do with ISIS). Trump is really not the major factor that got NK to the negotiating table... but he's very very good at self-promotion, so it's not surprising that he's managed to create the narrative that it's all thanks to him.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

and just to highlight your point, in todays news:

Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn must change stance, says Lord Kinnock

Jeremy Corbyn will commit "a serious evasion of duty" if he does not change his stance on Brexit, former Labour leader Lord Kinnock has said.

The peer told the Independent that Labour should endorse the UK staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) or risk "sacrificing thousands" of jobs.

Staying in the EEA would mean the UK retained key aspects of the single market after leaving the EU.

But Mr Corbyn has opposed this idea as the UK would not make the rules.

Lord Kinnock was one of the 83 Labour peers who defied the party leadership this week and voted for an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill in the House of Lords to keep the UK in the EEA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44092538