[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So you get to decide which time they were lying? That's convenient

The fact they were ever lying would lead me to believe they're lying now.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The fact they were ever lying would lead me to believe they're lying now.

But not then?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So you get to decide which time they were lying? That's convenient

Not at all , but if someone says one thing then the exact opposite after they are a liar.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Not at all , but if someone says one thing then the exact opposite after they are a liar.

But no-one really has any proof as to which time they were lying....people took their word as gospel when it fit their narrative.

Even is MJ was still alive, he would still vehemently deny it and regardless of anything else, his actions towards children have led to broken people today

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Not at all , but if someone says one thing then the exact opposite after they are a liar.

But they were kids surrounded by adults, the maid said lots of videos were removed before the first police raid.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

They said on oath that MJ never touched them, but we are now 10 after his death are supposed to believe their words now , which says he did , that is why they are NOW perceived as liars.

Yes but the flipside of that, is that we're supposed to believe that they're now willingly confessing to lying under oath in an attempt to make a little bit of money; when there's a high likelihood that the civil suit will still fail on technicalities. It doesn't make sense at all. The next argument is that "they'll make money from interviews" but what? How much? Six figures if they're VERY lucky? And we're then supposed to believe that they've willingly put themselves in the firing line of millions of obsessive fans, destroyed their families, and opened up their parents to a lifetime of shame "for interview money". It's just... well. It's a stretch, isn't it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but the flipside of that, is that we're supposed to believe that they're now willingly confessing to lying under oath in an attempt to make a little bit of money; when there's a high likelihood that the civil suit will still fail on technicalities. It doesn't make sense at all. The next argument is that "they'll make money from interviews" but what? How much? Six figures if they're VERY lucky? And we're then supposed to believe that they've willingly put themselves in the firing line of millions of obsessive fans, destroyed their families, and opened up their parents to a lifetime of shame "for interview money". It's just... well. It's a stretch, isn't it.

When the book comes out... and then the film of the book... we can meet up here to discuss it.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

They said on oath that MJ never touched them, but we are now 10 after his death are supposed to believe their words now , which says he did , that is why they are NOW perceived as liars.

I still don't understand why people ignore the fact they swore on oath ,which is illegal isn't it ?!! .

I think as well some people who have suffered abuse themselves ,have a different view and are led to believe it as it brings back memories .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I still don't understand why people ignore the fact they swore on oath ,which is illegal isn't it ?!! .

I'm not ignoring it I think it's quite a compelling reason to believe what they have to say; they're admitting to lying in court which is not something someone would normally want to do. I can't think of much reason for them to admit to something like that, if they didn't have a very good reason to do so. A better reason than "because they MIGHT get a book deal or something" at least.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I still don't understand why people ignore the fact they swore on oath ,which is illegal isn't it ?!! .

I think as well some people who have suffered abuse themselves ,have a different view and are led to believe it as it brings back memories .

Or they just may have a better understanding of what these boys went through and how they feel mentally about it all now...

[Niamh.]

Regarding the "perfect victim" Vicky, just look at how Jan acted around B, she was smitten with him for years after aswell

[user104658]

"Michael Jackson was cleared in 2005 and Wade Robson is a complete and utter LIAR! Once a liar always a liar!"

"A huge part of him being cleared in 2005 was Wade Robson's testimony, he was considered the #1 key witness..."

"Err yes he is a liar now, he was telling the truth in 2005"

[Vicky.]

Sorry their reasons for sticking up for him made sense to me. Hell one of the guys still sounds confused as hell about it all, sounds like he still considers it was a 'relationship' rather than abuse. The other seems a bit more sorted in his head and seems to have realised it was abuse rather than 'love' but still sounds very confused to be quite honest at times, and the anxiety when talking about it..I don't believe that can be faked that well, and if it was, he really should have an amazing career in acting.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Sorry their reasons for sticking up for him made sense to me. Hell one of the guys still sounds confused as hell about it all, sounds like he still considers it was a 'relationship' rather than abuse. The other seems a bit more sorted in his head and seems to have realised it was abuse rather than 'love' but still sounds very confused to be quite honest at times, and the anxiety when talking about it..I don't believe that can be faked that well, and if it was, he really should have an amazing career in acting.

I agree and in all honesty I think that if Jackson was still alive, and that distance / headspace wasn't there, Wade Robson may quite likely still be friends with him to this day. Though I doubt he would be leaving him alone with his son.

James Safechuck just seems utterly broken and I have no idea how people imagine one "fakes" something like that in an attempt to get some money. As you say, if he's faking it then he's an exceptional method actor.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Sorry their reasons for sticking up for him made sense to me. Hell one of the guys still sounds confused as hell about it all, sounds like he still considers it was a 'relationship' rather than abuse. The other seems a bit more sorted in his head and seems to have realised it was abuse rather than 'love' but still sounds very confused to be quite honest at times, and the anxiety when talking about it..I don't believe that can be faked that well, and if it was, he really should have an amazing career in acting.

Yeah, to me the two men looked and sounded like they were telling the truth, like you say. The mothers and I mean both of them giggled through the interview and looked almost nostalagic thinking back to the first class flights and hotel rooms, that in itself, for me is pretty telling on how the abuse happened like it did, they were the perfect targets for MJ with mothers like them two "protecting" them

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, to me the two men looked and sounded like they were telling the truth, like you say. The mothers and I mean both of them giggled through the interview and looked almost nostalagic thinking back to the first class flights and hotel rooms, that in itself, for me is pretty telling on how the abuse happened like it did, they were the perfect targets for MJ with mothers like them two "protecting" them

They were both consummate performers. And have been since they were kids.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

They were both consummate performers. And have been since they were kids.

Yes,isn't one a budding actor but isn't working at the moment ?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, to me the two men looked and sounded like they were telling the truth, like you say. The mothers and I mean both of them giggled through the interview and looked almost nostalagic thinking back to the first class flights and hotel rooms, that in itself, for me is pretty telling on how the abuse happened like it did, they were the perfect targets for MJ with mothers like them two "protecting" them

Quite. And you know, if I think hard enough I can kind of see how that happened too, but cannot imagine myself ever being so blinded by someones fame or whatever as to allow random adult men to sleep with my 7 year old, on their own. Like, how the **** did they suspect nothing when their rooms started getting further and further from the adult who was sleeping with their kid?

They were definitely the perfect targets. Unfortunately, they did not behave the way victims should...random crying and getting emotional and telling everyone in secret at the time, etc etc. Which, tbh I would think is probably much more 'typical' than the victim the public tend to expect.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Quite. And you know, if I think hard enough I can kind of see how that happened too, but cannot imagine myself ever being so blinded by someones fame or whatever as to allow random adult men to sleep with my 7 year old, on their own. Like, how the **** did they suspect nothing when their rooms started getting further and further from the adult who was sleeping with their kid?

They were definitely the perfect targets. Unfortunately, they did not behave the way victims should...random crying and getting emotional and telling everyone in secret at the time, etc etc. Which, tbh I would think is probably much more 'typical' than the victim the public tend to expect.

Whatever happened with Jackson, I have to say... if what the parents said about the kids sleeping separately from their parents, the parents themselves would be partially culpable.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Whatever happened with Jackson, I have to say... if what the parents said about the kids sleeping separately from their parents, the parents themselves would be partially culpable.

Oh ****ing definitely. They way the mothers were giggling on and that kind of sickened me. Still don't see themselves as wrong, seemingly, though they said the words at a few points.

Like, you have 'known' this random guy a few days, and you leave your young child there and **** off touring America, leaving your child with this random adult man who...while yeah he was famous, you still DONT EVEN KNOW!

Its bonkers. The parents have a definite part to play in this.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Sorry their reasons for sticking up for him made sense to me. Hell one of the guys still sounds confused as hell about it all, sounds like he still considers it was a 'relationship' rather than abuse. The other seems a bit more sorted in his head and seems to have realised it was abuse rather than 'love' but still sounds very confused to be quite honest at times, and the anxiety when talking about it..I don't believe that can be faked that well, and if it was, he really should have an amazing career in acting.

I'm not convinced . Why wait 10 years!??? , and they can't be that confused if they're happy to take part in a documentary claiming Jackson was a paedophile .

I still think it's money motivated with a dash of jealousy at the attention he gave other kids . And by attention I don't mean anything inappropriate . Yes he was a strange guy with issues who shouldn't of invited kids in his home like that , but in his mind he obviously didn't see it as odd .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I'm not convinced . Why wait 10 years!??? , and they can't be that confused if they're happy to take part in a documentary claiming Jackson was a paedophile .

I still think it's money motivated with a dash of jealousy at the attention he gave other kids . And by attention I don't mean anything inappropriate . Yes he was a strange guy with issues who shouldn't of invited kids in his home like that , but in his mind he obviously didn't see it as odd .

You could say this about thousands of victims of grooming, why wait so long to say anything.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I'm not convinced . Why wait 10 years!??? , and they can't be that confused if they're happy to take part in a documentary claiming Jackson was a paedophile .

I still think it's money motivated with a dash of jealousy at the attention he gave other kids . And by attention I don't mean anything inappropriate . Yes he was a strange guy with issues who shouldn't of invited kids in his home like that , but in his mind he obviously didn't see it as odd .

That sentence just sounds so messed up though, you're even talking about them like they're scorned lovers.........which is not far off the truth imo

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That sentence just sounds so messed up though, you're even talking about them like they're scorned lovers.........which is not far off the truth imo

They're the ones twisting it to sound that way .I'm not saying it that way ! but think about it another way, if loads of kids idolise and spend time with their fav celebrity and they then find out actually that celebrity has other fans who get more attention then I think some would get jealous . An ordinary kid wouldn't care they'd just accept it , but if we're dealing with kids who are obsessive then that opens up all sorts .

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

They're the ones twisting it to sound that way .I'm not saying it that way ! but think about it another way, if loads of kids idolise and spend time with their fav celebrity and they then find out actually that celebrity has other fans who get more attention then I think some would get jealous . An ordinary kid wouldn't care they'd just accept it , but if we're dealing with kids who are obsessive then that opens up all sorts .

Omg..it's a tactic pedos use...they make targets compete against eachother for attention, then to maintain that attention they perform the act required...well, until the pedo gets bored and wants a new play thinqg, then they get tossed to the side, often ridiculed as they are sent packing....