[reece(:]

Sophie not buying what they're selling!

[MTVN]

Very noble Sophie

[reece(:]

For a minute there I thought she said Judi Dench not Judi James.

[DanaC]

If women and men behaved alike then women wouldn't be acting like men we'd all just be acting like people.

The way men and women think and feel isn't really all that different from each other.
But we are expected to act like we are entirely different.

I'm interested to know how men got the getting blind drunk behaviour in their repertoire whilst women didn't . What is it about that behaviour that is male?

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

If women and men behaved alike then women wouldn't be acting like men we'd all just be acting like people.

The way men and women think and feel isn't really all that different from each other.
But we are expected to act like we are entirely different.

I'm interested to know how men got the getting blind drunk behaviour in their repertoire whilst women didn't . What is it about that behaviour that is male?

If im being honest, the getting blind drunk and vomiting in door ways and being aggressive and loud isn't my scene and im not a fan of anyone doing it, but rightly or wrongly men have developed that behaviour of a night out.

I just don't see why because men behave in a certain way that women should copy that way of behaviour out of some kind of "equality" thing...I think men and women can be equal but different.

I hope Charlotte isn't typical of what young women aspire to be like...it would be very depressing...I long for the days when women were feminine .

[DanaC]

But here's the thing: if a behaviour is a male behaviour because men do it, then surely a behaviour is female if women do it. And if men developed that way of behaving because they found it fun or in some way satisfying then why do you assume women are doing it to be like men and not because they discovered how fun and in some way satisfying it is?

If you as a male don't find that kind of thing fun and someone else who is female does find it fun - which one of you us acting contrary to your gender?

Women aren't all alike. Some like getting blind drunk some don't. Some like going shopping some don't. Some like playing football some don't. Men also aren't all alike. Some like getting drunk and some don't. Some like going shopping and some don't. Some like playing football and some don't.

There are lots of women who fit into a traditionally feminine role and lots who don't. But that's ok. There are lots of men who fit a traditionally masculine role and lots who don't. That's ok too. Clearly, for you a more traditionally feminine way of being is more attractive. That's also cool. But why would you want all women to fit into a particular version if femininity ?

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But here's the thing: if a behaviour is a male behaviour because men do it, then surely a behaviour is female if women do it. And if men developed that way of behaving because they found it fun or in some way satisfying then why do you assume women are doing it to be like men and not because they discovered how fun and in some way satisfying it is?

If you as a male don't find that kind of thing fun and someone else who is female does find it fun - which one of you us acting contrary to your gender?

Women aren't all alike. Some like getting blind drunk some don't. Some like going shopping some don't. Some like playing football some don't. Men also aren't all alike. Some like getting drunk and some don't. Some like going shopping and some don't. Some like playing football and some don't.

There are lots of women who fit into a traditionally feminine role and lots who don't. But that's ok. There are lots of men who fit a traditionally masculine role and lots who don't. That's ok too. Clearly, for you a more traditionally feminine way of being is more attractive. That's also cool. But why would you want all women to fit into a particular version if femininity ?

Women never used to behave that way, so that would suggest it's not a natural female way of behaving...your point would hold water if women always behaved in such a crude Charlotte type way.

I do think modern women feel under pressure to be and act the same as men, to close some sort of gender gap, women boxing (and you don't get much more male than that), drinking as much as men, swearing, fighting on the frontline in wars, and so on...these are certainly not good for women and are not natural for women to be doing...but sadly feminism has pushed women into doing these things as they are conned into believing that is the only way women can be truly equal to men...I respectfully disagree with that.

BTW, before anyone says that I would want women bare foot and pregnant is wrong and I reject that too.

Men and Women can and should be equal but different, lets celebrate our differences instead of denying them.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Videostar

Women never used to behave that way, so that would suggest it's not a natural female way of behaving...your point would hold water if women always behaved in such a crude Charlotte type way.

The way women have behaved, as indeed the way men have behaved, has been different at different times in history and in different places.

Which would suggest it is not about how a woman naturally acts, but how she is expected (and brought up) to act.

Even during times when female behaviour was more heavily regulated than now (and when I say more heavily regulated, I'm talking parliamentary committees looking into why the women working at the pit heads, the so-called 'pithead lassies' wore trousers whilst they worked, as this was considered to be damaging the moral health of the nation), there were always women who did not conform to that rigid behavioural code.

If women's 'femininity' and decorum was simply the natural way for a woman to act, they wouldn't need anybody to tell them that's how they must act. Yet the femininity you suggest is natural, has always been taught to girls. The same way 'good manners' are taught to all children. How else do children know it is rude to talk with their mouths full, or to point at people? Just as all children are taught these things, boys have to be taught they are not to hit girls when they play as they might with a boy. And girls have to be taught to be demure and not run amok like their brothers.

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

If women's 'femininity' and decorum was simply the natural way for a woman to act, they wouldn't need anybody to tell them that's how they must act. Yet the femininity you suggest is natural, has always been taught to girls. The same way 'good manners' are taught to all children. How else do children know it is rude to talk with their mouths full, or to point at people? Just as all children are taught these things, boys have to be taught they are not to hit girls when they play as they might with a boy. And girls have to be taught to be demure and not run amok like their brothers.

My issue is that femininity is dying, there hardly no feminine women left anymore...or what would be naturally thought of as femininity, im saying women have been told by womens groups in recent years that the only way to be truly equal to men is to act just like them..thats not women changing naturally that's being bread into them.

But what you say about how children have been brought up to be like, I think that's dying out too, and that's also a tragic thing.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Videostar

My issue is that femininity is dying, there hardly no feminine women left anymore...or what would be naturally thought of as femininity, im saying women have been told by womens groups in recent years that the only way to be truly equal to men is to act just like them..thats not women changing naturally that's being bread into them.

But what you say about how children have been brought up to be like, I think that's dying out too, and that's also a tragic thing.

I would say it is the other way around. I would say that there has been enormous pressure on women to conform to a very narrow view of feminine behaviour and attitudes, for a very long time. It's shifted and changed in terms of the exact parameters of that femininity, but that pressure has been there throughout most of the modern era, and backed up by law for a good deal of that. In recent decades there has been a lessening of social control of women. And without that social control, it is becoming apparent that many of what we thought of as natural distinctions, were in fact artificial and required some women to silence or constrain part of who and what they were.

Women are not all the same. They do not all have the same proclivities and inclinations. Some women really do want to fight. And some women really do have a passion for taking apart engines.

And some women really do like gorgeous clothes and some really love being a good wife.

What you seem to want, is for 'women' as a whole to act in a particular way, or within a particular set of parameters.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Videostar

Women never used to behave that way, so that would suggest it's not a natural female way of behaving...your point would hold water if women always behaved in such a crude Charlotte type way.

I do think modern women feel under pressure to be and act the same as men, to close some sort of gender gap, women boxing (and you don't get much more male than that), drinking as much as men, swearing, fighting on the frontline in wars, and so on...these are certainly not good for women and are not natural for women to be doing...but sadly feminism has pushed women into doing these things as they are conned into believing that is the only way women can be truly equal to men...I respectfully disagree with that.

BTW, before anyone says that I would want women bare foot and pregnant is wrong and I reject that too.

Men and Women can and should be equal but different, lets celebrate our differences instead of denying them.

I hear what you're saying, but: some women have always done those things. Right down to going to war, and bareknuckle fighting. Not the majority, but some. Always.

If you think Charlotte is bad, you should read some accounts of 18th century London life.


The 21st century did not invent uncouth, bawdy women. It just gave one of them a tv show

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I hear what you're saying, but: some women have always done those things. Right down to going to war, and bareknuckle fighting. Not the majority, but some. Always.

If you think Charlotte is bad, you should read some accounts of 18th century London life.


The 21st century did not invent uncouth, bawdy women. It just gave one of them a tv show

I'll take your point there.

[Jack_]

Honestly the latent and blatant sexism, ageism, racism, xenophobia and transphobia that I've seen from some people on this forum in the last week has been worse than I have ever seen in the five years I've been on here, and I swear the next discriminatory post of the kind I've just alluded to that I see is probably gonna make me flip the **** out, it makes me so angry

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Honestly the latent and blatant sexism, ageism, racism, xenophobia and transphobia that I've seen from some people on this forum in the last week has been worse than I have ever seen in the five years I've been on here, and I swear the next discriminatory post of the kind I've just alluded to that I see is probably gonna make me flip the **** out, it makes me so angry

I do hope your post isn't directed at me...none of the above describes my attitudes.

[DanaC]

Anger isn't your friend in this kind of setting m'dear. They are the words and thoughts of a handful of people you're unlikely to have to engage with in any other way.

*smile*

There are far more people posting things that aren't pushing at the things you care about than are. And most if those that are, do so without malice. Being aware of the broader cultural context is good thing imo, but it can make the world seem a colder place if you let it. There are too many fights to be had in life. Sometimes, I think it is better to choose not be angry. Have the arguments but save the anger for when its useful.

Just my tuppenorth . Apologies if that was a little presumptuous of me.

[Waynoo]

Lighten up and stop being so p.c.

[DanaC]

I wasn't being PC and I'm not offended by anything Videostar said. This is probably the wrong place for it, but this stuff interests me.

[the truth]

she behaves like a boring loudmouthed pig. I don't like anyone who behaves like a this. regardless if they are male female hetrosexual, homosexual or extra terrestrials. I detest boorish loud mouthed crass attention seeking behaviour, I find it soooo mindless and boring. I also detest morons who encourage it.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by the truth

she behaves like a boring loudmouthed pig. I don't like anyone who behaves like a this. regardless if they are male female hetrosexual, homosexual or extra terrestrials. I detest boorish loud mouthed crass attention seeking behaviour, I find it soooo mindless and boring. I also detest morons who encourage it.

Fair point.

They're not really the kind of people I gravitate towards. Can't say I'd be thrilled if my nieces behaved like that, either.

[DanaC]

*chuckles*

ok. But one last point: acting in a way that doesn't conform to your idea of what femininity is, doesn't mean someone isn't acting to their own conception of what femininity is. It doesnt mean they are ashamed of their gender. It just means they conceive it differently.

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

*chuckles*

ok. But one last point: acting in a way that doesn't conform to your idea of what femininity is, doesn't mean someone isn't acting to their own conception of what femininity is. It doesnt mean they are ashamed of their gender. It just means they conceive it differently.

I'll have to respectfully disagree, by going against what (not just me) but what most would think of as femininity they are disrespecting womanhood, i'd go as far as to say they have lost all femininity.

[DanaC]

That puts me in mind of this:

With Honor, Virtue, Truth, announcing war;
Survey with me, what ne'er our fathers saw, `
A female band despising NATURE's law,
As "proud defiance" flashes from their arms,
And vengeance smothers all their softer charms.

I shudder at the new unpictur'd scene,
Where unsex'd woman vaunts the imperious mien;
Where girls, affecting to dismiss the heart,
Invoke the Proteus of petrific art;

From The unsex'd females: a poem, addressed to the author of the Pursuits of literature, written in the late 18th Century, in response to an influx of female writers and political thinkers.

Femininity has been declared endangered or dead many times. It is nothing new.

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That puts me in mind of this:




From The unsex'd females: a poem, addressed to the author of the Pursuits of literature, written in the late 18th Century, in response to an influx of female writers and political thinkers.

Femininity has been declared endangered or dead many times. It is nothing new.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting that this has been a debating point for so many centuries.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Videostar

Thanks for posting that, very interesting that this has been a debating point for so many centuries.

For as long as people have put pen to paper (or stylus to wax) the old have complained that the young are out of control and have lost respect, and (mainly) men have complained that women aren't what they used to be, and gone are the days when they were truly feminine.


* I should add a sprinkling of women complaining that men aren't what they used to be, and gone are the days when they acted like real men

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

For as long as people have put pen to paper (or stylus to wax) the old have complained that the young are out of control and have lost respect, and (mainly) men have complained that women aren't what they used to be, and gone are the days when they were truly feminine.


* I should add a sprinkling of women complaining that men aren't what they used to be, and gone are the days when they acted like real men

Don't get me started about men who wear ear rings and makeup, we'll be here all night.