[Livia]

You know, Kirk has a right to his opinion without getting a whole performance in reply.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You know, Kirk has a right to his opinion without getting a whole performance in reply.

What exactly is his opinion? It's far too cryptic for me to decipher.

[kirklancaster]

Thank you Liv, for your defense.

To answer the posts on here - I am referring to a time BEFORE I had SEEN this on this forum. A time when I had NOT seen it on any TV news Channel or read about it in any newspaper, but even if I HAD seen a cctv photo of a black man dressed in traditional Zulu garb, it would not preclude him from being a third or fourth generation British African and having the name Tom Smith, no more than a blonde haired white man featured in a cctv photo cannot be called Krystoff Stanislow, or similar.

However, I had not seen any such photo, nor had any previous knowledge, but was simply talking briefly with a neighbour who mentioned that 'another nutter was at it, attacking women in London'. He did not mention specifics, or give any description of the perpetrator, but then he did not have to, and I casually told him; "Odds on it will be a foreigner" Or words to that effect, and NO - despite what some on here may insist - I was NOT being xenophobic or racist, just realistic.

Realistic, because, unlike a lot of the views on this forum - my views are not shaped through living in a 'rose-festooned' bubble in 'Fool's Paradise' but because I live in the REAL world.

I am no prejudicial judge - I only formulate opinions after carefully weighing evidence from as many sources as possible, including my own direct experience learnt over a lot of years, and yes, I can still make a wrong call, but not often - as events over time eventually often support including on this very forum.

So I made the statement based NOT on prejudice but based on FACTS and MATHEMATICAL probability.

T.S himself will know, that when a wealthy punter placed Ł110,000 on the mighty Frankel at odds of 2 to 11 for his 14th and final ever race - The 2012 Champion Stakes, that punter was to all intents and purposes 'predicting' the winner. Yet it was not a prediction based on any 'psychic' ability, nor was it an act of idiocy - it was a LOGICAL ASSUMPTION based on the FACTS that Frankel had won his previous 13 races. That he had won them by a total of 76 lengths. That his Timeform rating of 147 is the highest in Timeform's history. That his official rating of 140 is the highest since the World Thoroughbred Rankings records began in 1977. etc etc etc.

Likewise, my statement BEFORE the facts of this case were known, had NOTHING to do with 'psychic' ability JUST plain old fashioned, historical precedents and the 'status quo' concerning LONDON and CRIME - previous FORM in other words :

1) Since the 2011 Census London has INCREASINGLY and RAPIDLY become a city where White Ethnic Britons are in a clear MINORITY.

2) As far back as 2007, official reports stated that foreigners were responsible for more than one in four crimes committed in London, and that ratio has now increased to more than one in three.

3) In 2010 an official report by Scotland Yard (produced under the Freedom of Information Act) revealed that Blacks were responsible for more than two-thirds of shootings and more than half of robberies and street crimes in London, make up 9 out of every 10 drug suspects, and more than I in every 3 sex crimes.

4) Other reports and Investigations during the past 5 years have revealed that:

a) Nationals of Poland, Romania and Lithuania are most likely of all foreigners to be prosecuted by the police
b) Out of 195,714 cases proceeded against alleged criminals in 2010, 46,588 were foreign nationals – or 24 per cent of the total.
c) Seven of the top ten offender nationalities were European. Poland came top with 4,742 alleged offenders, ahead of Romania with 3,952 and Lithuania with 2,561. Police processed 436 Australians.

Unsolved crime was NOT included in the results and the above figures have dramatically increased over the 5 years since.

5) It is impossible to view the BBC's 'Crimewatch' without becoming aware that around 75% of the crimes aired feature non-British or non-White suspects/perpetrators.

Indeed, of the 10 criminals featured on the Rogues Gallery of 26 Feb 2010 - mainly involving violent crimes, 8 were non-white, and this episode is not unique.

6) It is the same with other crime/police documentaries such as 'Street Crime UK', 'Cops', The Met' etc. etc. A very DISPROPORTIONATE number of criminals are foreign.

Now, some may see 'deliberate targeting' because of those much loved terms; 'Racial Prejudice', or 'Xenophobia' on the part of the program makers, but in light of the facts that many DIFFERENT companies produce these programs, I prefer to believe that the results on screen or in type-written reports, are 'as the chips fall' – in other words, this IS the Status Quo, this IS HOW IT IS.

Much like if one went fishing every week in the same pond one had fished in for decades, but increasingly one now kept hooking 80% turds where it used to be mainly fish – then one is either mistakenly fishing in a cess pit, or those once well-stocked waters are becoming increasingly polluted.

Have a nice day.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank you Liv, for your defense.

Much like if one went fishing every week in the same pond one had fished in for decades, but increasingly one now kept hooking 80% turds where it used to be mainly fish – then one is either mistakenly fishing in a cess pit, or those once well-stocked waters are becoming increasingly polluted.

Have a nice day.

This is a seriously disturbing analogy.

[lime]

Originally Posted by Cherie

This is a seriously disturbing analogy.

Agree 100%
As a 43yr old Afrikaner , that kind of statements reminds me of my school days during apartheid when after morning prayers we were constantly told how good we were and how bad the "Kaffirs" were

[user104658]

Hmmmmmmmm it's hardly a new concept, it's called racial profiling, and also, it's not like someone just came up with the idea of racial profiling out of nowhere: certain types of crimes are more likely to be carried out by certain demographics.

However, there are also VERY GOOD REASONS to avoid being tempted into using racial profiling. It's "shortcut logic" that can lead to devastating misconceptions and mistakes. In other words, there are well researched reasons that law enforcement agencies don't (or shouldn't) do it.

It also creates self-fulfilling prophecies. For example; in certain areas, young black men are far more likely than any other group to be carrying a blade. This lead to pretty widescale racial profiling for "random" stop and search practices by the police. Not only is this unfair, it also (for obvious reason) helps to create a pariah-culture amoungst that group, and ends up pushing more young people down the sort of route where they ARE more likely to be carrying a blade, reinforcing the stereotype, and seemingly justifying the profiling.

TL;DR - there's a very good reason, sometimes, not to share an assumption no matter how convinced of it you are - and even if it turns out to be an accurate assumption.



ALSO Kirk, I resent the implication in your post. Frankel is not a sex predator, that old fella's jizz is worth a fortune

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmmmmmmm it's hardly a new concept, it's called racial profiling, and also, it's not like someone just came up with the idea of racial profiling out of nowhere: certain types of crimes are more likely to be carried out by certain demographics.

However, there are also VERY GOOD REASONS to avoid being tempted into using racial profiling. It's "shortcut logic" that can lead to devastating misconceptions and mistakes. In other words, there are well researched reasons that law enforcement agencies don't (or shouldn't) do it.

It also creates self-fulfilling prophecies. For example; in certain areas, young black men are far more likely than any other group to be carrying a blade. This lead to pretty widescale racial profiling for "random" stop and search practices by the police. Not only is this unfair, it also (for obvious reason) helps to create a pariah-culture amoungst that group, and ends up pushing more young people down the sort of route where they ARE more likely to be carrying a blade, reinforcing the stereotype, and seemingly justifying the profiling.

TL;DR - there's a very good reason, sometimes, not to share an assumption no matter how convinced of it you are - and even if it turns out to be an accurate assumption.



ALSO Kirk, I resent the implication in your post. Frankel is not a sex predator, that old fella's jizz is worth a fortune

A very good post T.S.

I love Frankel and loved his trainer the incomparable Henry Cecil. He is sorely missed, and I'm just thankful that Frankel raised him up again out of the doldrums before he passed.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmmmmmmm it's hardly a new concept, it's called racial profiling, and also, it's not like someone just came up with the idea of racial profiling out of nowhere: certain types of crimes are more likely to be carried out by certain demographics.

However, there are also VERY GOOD REASONS to avoid being tempted into using racial profiling. It's "shortcut logic" that can lead to devastating misconceptions and mistakes. In other words, there are well researched reasons that law enforcement agencies don't (or shouldn't) do it.

It also creates self-fulfilling prophecies. For example; in certain areas, young black men are far more likely than any other group to be carrying a blade. This lead to pretty widescale racial profiling for "random" stop and search practices by the police. Not only is this unfair, it also (for obvious reason) helps to create a pariah-culture amoungst that group, and ends up pushing more young people down the sort of route where they ARE more likely to be carrying a blade, reinforcing the stereotype, and seemingly justifying the profiling.

TL;DR - there's a very good reason, sometimes, not to share an assumption no matter how convinced of it you are - and even if it turns out to be an accurate assumption.



ALSO Kirk, I resent the implication in your post. Frankel is not a sex predator, that old fella's jizz is worth a fortune

I haven't really got anything useful to add to this debate that hasn't already been said, but I just wanted to say this is a fantastic post TS. Especially the paragraph about self-fulfilling prophecies. As a white british male I can't imagine what it's like to walk down the street and feel like people/the police are looking at me with suspicion, but I imagine that it would probably affect me negatively in some way.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LiamBB

I haven't really got anything useful to add to this debate that hasn't already been said, but I just wanted to say this is a fantastic post TS. Especially the paragraph about self-fulfilling prophecies. As a white british male I can't imagine what it's like to walk down the street and feel like people/the police are looking at me with suspicion, but I imagine that it would probably affect me negatively in some way.

Of course it would, it would automatically give you a distrust and dislike for the Police for a start

[Kizzy]

Clearly your turd reference struck a chord and reminded Lime of schooldays in the times of apartheid, I can see why.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Clearly your turd reference struck a chord and reminded Lime of schooldays in the times of apartheid, I can see why.

Who cares what you "can see"?

All this overreactionary opportunist axe-grinding is purely because I stated what I COULD SEE.

And I prefer the direct, real testimony of my own eyes than any second-hand professed testimony of yours.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Who cares what you "can see"?

All this overreactionary opportunist axe-grinding is purely because I stated what I COULD SEE.

And I prefer the direct, real testimony of my own eyes than any second-hand professed testimony of yours.

Not sure why you're choosing to get personal with everyone who took exception to the analogy within your post.
This is a discussion forum, and people will comment on what you say, it's kind of the point.

[Livia]

Some people don't agree with what Kirk posted. Fine. Doesn't take a whole bunch of you to let him know, does it? All getting bent out of shape because you don't agree... while in another part of the forum a fifteen year old has posted a thread "what type of porn do you prefer". This place is a madhouse.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Some people don't agree with what Kirk posted. Fine. Doesn't take a whole bunch of you to let him know, does it? All getting bent out of shape because you don't agree... while in another part of the forum a fifteen year old has posted a thread "what type of porn do you prefer".

I can't speak for anyone else but for me, as an individual, I will comment if I disagree with a post a person makes in the debate section, I'm not linked to anyone else so I don't understand why you've lumped everyone who disagreed with Kirk together?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I can't speak for anyone else but for me, as an individual, I will comment if I disagree with a post a person makes in the debate section, I'm not linked to anyone else so I don't understand why you've lumped everyone who disagreed with Kirk together?

Well, I opened this thread this morning and there are five or six people tearing Kirk a new one. I'm not sure how many more ways there are to say people don't agree and they think he's a racist. And everyone's assuming Kirk's a white Anglo-Saxon protestant. I hope everyone's right.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well, I opened this thread this morning and there are five or six people tearing Kirk a new one. I'm not sure how many more ways there are to say people don't agree and they think he's a racist. And everyone's assuming Kirk's a white Anglo-Saxon protestant. I hope everyone's right.

Actually no one is assuming that Livia since he's said quite a few times that he's not

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Actually no one is assuming that Livia since he's said quite a few times that he's not

Yeah well, with respect, I think everyone's made their point in relation to Kirk's comments. The real villain of this thread is a foreign serial sex attacker who, when he's caught will probably not be deported because he's "made a life here".

[lime]

Originally Posted by Livia

Some people don't agree with what Kirk posted. Fine. Doesn't take a whole bunch of you to let him know, does it? All getting bent out of shape because you don't agree... while in another part of the forum a fifteen year old has posted a thread "what type of porn do you prefer".

Livia you know I am very fond of you.What Kirk posted was on a public disscusson forum where I am sure he knows his views will be talked about ..the same as mine or your own views.Trust me I am not getting out of shape over his opinions...I will go and look at this thread re porn

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lime

Livia you know I am very fond of you.What Kirk posted was on a public disscusson forum where I am sure he knows his views will be talked about ..the same as mine or your own views.Trust me I am not getting out of shape over his opinions...I will go and look at this thread re porn

It's just a link to a silly buzzfeed quiz, it's nothing to do with this or any other topic in serious debates.

[lime]

You might consider yourself as being non offensive .....but you are.It is clear from Aristas op that the offdener was either Arabic or mediteranin .Days later you want to claim that you and your mate had already decidced that this crime was carried out by a forgerins

Please excuse my english ...it's not my first language.....I'm one of those nasty forgerins you here about

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lime

You might consider yourself as being non offensive .....but you are.It is clear from Aristas op that the offdener was either Arabic or mediteranin .Days later you want to claim that you and your mate had already decidced that this crime was carried out by a forgerins

Please excuse my english ...it's not my first language.....I'm one of those nasty forgerins you here about

Your words not mine - I was referring to nasty foreign criminals, of which this country is teeming.

[Niamh.]

Ok, back ontopic, lets not start raking up old arguments

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok, back ontopic, lets not start raking up old arguments

I've not had bold Niamh for ages

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I've not had bold Niamh for ages

Things are getting serious now

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Things are getting serious now

In serious debates?....