[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman”

ok who specifically are we talking about here?

which women, what are their names?

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

[RichardG]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by RichardG

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise

[RichardG]

she could at least shave the beard

[Vicky.]

Its not about stereotypes though is it? Nothing to do with looks, biology or anything. SOLELY a 'feeling' that you are a woman? Isn't this the current line?

[RichardG]

if you say so

[Vicky.]

Indeed

[thesheriff443]

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

Humans make the rules and laws and some of these rules and laws are based on a persons sex based on weather they where born male or female.

Life is deep and complicated, I have an opinion but having an opinion does not count for much.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody chooses to be transgender. People who do go through the transition do so to feel more like their true self. How can we say they aren’t real women or real men when gender is more complicated than being man or woman.

As for stereotyping, everyone is put in boxes by their families, their religion, by society even by our own bodies. Gender has always been considered a fact, immutable, but we now know its more fluid, complex and mysterious and not just about the genitalia we were born with.

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

You kind of lost me here?

[Vicky.]

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

Yes, gender is more complicated than sex. Because gender...is all in ones head.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

.

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Males process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Men and females process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.

What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

So...what are your definitions of man and woman?!

All of this is very interesting, but words have to actually mean something? If we cannot say what a woman actually IS, how can anyone 'identify' as one?

[Vicky.]

Ohh I get it. Your 'male' friend is a transman? So now, male and female mean nothing aswell as man and woman? So confusing.

I do get where you are coming from, but deliberately blurring sex/gender is not helpful in any discussion Also your friend sounds to be transsexual, not transgender. There is a huge difference.



Edit. Sorry if this post comes across as harsh, just read back and the tone is not how I intended at all but I am arguing with a friend who is trying to tell me that transgender people are actually born as the sex that they wish they were, science is wrong, males and females are no different in any way and that the dick can indeed be a female organ and we should accept that whilst declaring that lesbians should not reject a partner based on their biological sex but gay men can and should?! Bizarre argument thats riling me somewhat.

[DemolitionRed]

I just edited what you quoted !!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I just edited what you quoted !!

Still doesn't answer..

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Still doesn't answer..

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

You seemingly have time to go into brain differences, hormones and hermaphrodites though? There has not been an actual answer given to the question

Edit. OH. I meant the edit still doesnt answer the question...I see now that came across wrong.

[Withano]

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life? Would you still dress like a female, would you shave your beard and apply makeup so people see you as female?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life?

Its not waking up one morning though, its being born that way. You have no frame of reference? In this thought experiment, I know what it is like to have a female body, and also a male body. Trans people do not.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.