Home Menu

Site Navigation


Notices

Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics.

Register to reply Log in to reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-09-2021, 10:38 AM #1
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh. View Post
No Liam, people are going to use this as an example of how easy it is to abuse a Self ID system.
Exactly, and it will still be framed as an anti-trans "tirade" to voice concerns, even with clear illustrative examples of why those concerns exist.
user104658 is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 10:44 AM #2
Liam-'s Avatar
Liam- Liam- is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cardiff.
Posts: 23,963

Favourites (more):
BB19: Lewis F
CBB21: Shane Jenek


Liam- Liam- is offline
Senior Member
Liam-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cardiff.
Posts: 23,963

Favourites (more):
BB19: Lewis F
CBB21: Shane Jenek


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh. View Post
No Liam, people are going to use this as an example of how easy it is to abuse a Self ID system.
Some people will for sure, but let’s not pretend that some people don’t wait with baited breath for stories like this, just so they can use it as another stick to beat the trans community with
__________________
Liam- is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 10:46 AM #3
Niamh.'s Avatar
Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
Niamh.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
Some people will for sure, but let’s not pretend that some people don’t wait with baited breath for stories like this, just so they can use it as another stick to beat the trans community with
Well I can only speak for myself here and as a woman and as a mother of a daughter my only interest in this issue is protecting women and girls rights and keeping women and girls safe, not beating any community with a stick.
__________________

Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by GiRTh View Post
You compare Jim Davidson to Nelson Mandela?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus. View Post
I know, how stupid? He's more like Gandhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 7:14 View Post



Katie Hopkins reveals epilepsy made her suicidal - and says she identifies as a MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
Just because she is a giant cock, doesn't make her a man.
Niamh. is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 10:52 AM #4
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
Some people will for sure, but let’s not pretend that some people don’t wait with baited breath for stories like this, just so they can use it as another stick to beat the trans community with
I think that's probably true, and then those with genuine concerns are lumped in with those individuals and all are branded as one and the same group without discussion or consideration. But that's just a feature of social media in general, I suppose. Still, it's a fundamentally vicious circle.
user104658 is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 10:36 AM #5
Livia's Avatar
Livia Livia is offline
Flag shagger.
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brasov, Transylvania
Posts: 34,738


Livia Livia is offline
Flag shagger.
Livia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brasov, Transylvania
Posts: 34,738


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
Got what they deserved.

It’s just a shame that people are now going to use this as an example in their anti-trans tirades, just like people did back in the day before gays were treated like humans.
Similarly, women have been subjugated for centuries... and some men still seem to think that they have rights over them. This kind of act impacts women and genuine trans people and I think most people can see that. Of course there is that section of society who hate everyone who's different and latch on to any story that fits their agenda.
Livia is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:33 PM #6
Elliot's Avatar
Elliot Elliot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 7,608

Favourites (more):
BB2023: Yinrun
Love Island 5: Amber
Elliot Elliot is offline
Senior Member
Elliot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 7,608

Favourites (more):
BB2023: Yinrun
Love Island 5: Amber
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
Got what they deserved.

It’s just a shame that people are now going to use this as an example in their anti-trans tirades, just like people did back in the day before gays were treated like humans.
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about
Elliot is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:39 PM #7
AnnieK's Avatar
AnnieK AnnieK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,815


AnnieK AnnieK is offline
Senior Member
AnnieK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,815


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about
Which miserable white women? The ones who were victims (including an underage girl) of indecent exposure? Or the miserable woman who exposed herself repeatedly if the charges are correct?
__________________
AnnieK is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:39 PM #8
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about
You mean other than petty things like wanting to ensure the safety of womens-only spaces from sexual predators? I imagine they have plenty more to complain about, but not much that's more important. Your male-centric privilege absolutely reeks Elliot.

I'll tell you what's tiring. Having to listen to little mini-rants from someone who I'm convinced simply downloaded their entire personality in PDF format.

Last edited by user104658; 03-09-2021 at 07:41 PM.
user104658 is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:40 PM #9
Niamh.'s Avatar
Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
Niamh.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about
Actually the women who complained in the Gym were black

Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
__________________

Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by GiRTh View Post
You compare Jim Davidson to Nelson Mandela?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus. View Post
I know, how stupid? He's more like Gandhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 7:14 View Post



Katie Hopkins reveals epilepsy made her suicidal - and says she identifies as a MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
Just because she is a giant cock, doesn't make her a man.
Niamh. is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:43 PM #10
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh. View Post
Actually the women who complained in the Gym were black
user104658 is offline  
Old 04-09-2021, 12:34 PM #11
Marsh. Marsh. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79,976


Marsh. Marsh. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79,976


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh. View Post
Actually the women who complained in the Gym were black

Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
Shots. Fired.

Marsh. is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 07:45 PM #12
Crimson Dynamo's Avatar
Crimson Dynamo Crimson Dynamo is offline
The voice of reason
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 105,769


Crimson Dynamo Crimson Dynamo is offline
The voice of reason
Crimson Dynamo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 105,769


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about
I wondered when this would happen

Crimson Dynamo is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 08:09 PM #13
Cherie's Avatar
Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot View Post
As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about

We will keep you tired don’t worry, small issue of hard fought women’s rights at stake..If that’s being miserable I will take it over your narrow mind any day
__________________
'put a bit of lippy on and run a brush through your hair, we are alcoholics, not savages'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beso
Livelier than Izaaz, and hes got 2 feet.
Cherie is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 08:38 PM #14
Beso's Avatar
Beso Beso is offline
Piss orf.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 47,999

Favourites:
BB4: Cameron


Beso Beso is offline
Piss orf.
Beso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 47,999

Favourites:
BB4: Cameron


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
We will keep you tired don’t worry, small issue of hard fought women’s rights at stake..If that’s being miserable I will take it over your narrow mind any day
Imagine if you were black and having to defend that sort of idiotic statement cherie!!
Beso is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 09:13 PM #15
Cherie's Avatar
Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parmnion View Post
Imagine if you were black and having to defend that sort of idiotic statement cherie!!
What Elliott seems to fails to comprehend is that women’s rights protect all women however they got there ..so we should all be on the same page against predators and people who abuse the system, we don’t live in Utopia!
__________________
'put a bit of lippy on and run a brush through your hair, we are alcoholics, not savages'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beso
Livelier than Izaaz, and hes got 2 feet.

Last edited by Cherie; 03-09-2021 at 09:14 PM.
Cherie is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 11:00 AM #16
Beso's Avatar
Beso Beso is offline
Piss orf.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 47,999

Favourites:
BB4: Cameron


Beso Beso is offline
Piss orf.
Beso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 47,999

Favourites:
BB4: Cameron


Default

Dirty beast.
Beso is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 11:09 AM #17
Oliver_W Oliver_W is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Bill's Secret Garden
Posts: 17,813

Favourites (more):
BBCanada 8: Chris
Apprentice 2019: Lottie


Oliver_W Oliver_W is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Bill's Secret Garden
Posts: 17,813

Favourites (more):
BBCanada 8: Chris
Apprentice 2019: Lottie


Default

Males simply don't belong in woman-only spaces, especially ones where they're exposed and/or vulnerable. Not "even" males who identify as transwomen.
__________________

Oliver_W is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 11:24 AM #18
rusticgal's Avatar
rusticgal rusticgal is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 26,186


rusticgal rusticgal is online now
Senior Member
rusticgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 26,186


Default

I recall seeing the video....good I am glad she has been charged. That just wasn't acceptable.
rusticgal is online now  
Old 03-09-2021, 12:33 PM #19
Captain.Remy Captain.Remy is offline
Nah
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France.
Posts: 27,913


Captain.Remy Captain.Remy is offline
Nah
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France.
Posts: 27,913


Default

I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.
__________________
Captain.Remy is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 12:53 PM #20
Alf's Avatar
Alf Alf is offline
Sod orf
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wapping
Posts: 36,261


Alf Alf is offline
Sod orf
Alf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wapping
Posts: 36,261


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain.Remy View Post
I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.
You should explain to your trans friends who you work with that they shouldn't Feel guilty or ashamed for something that some other human-being did. And you should tell them that their rights are exactly the same as everybody else's rights. They have equal rights to me. I have no rights that they don't have, we're equal.

Maybe they should start being trans-individuals instead of belonging to a trans-community with people they don't even know, who could be criminals, like in this case.

Just a suggestion.

Last edited by Alf; 03-09-2021 at 01:00 PM.
Alf is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 01:41 PM #21
Niamh.'s Avatar
Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
Niamh.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain.Remy View Post
I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.
This is what I mean about Self ID actually hurting genuine trans people. It leaves the door wide open for people like the guy in the OP to abuse and it strongly restricts people's (mainly women and girls in situations like these) ability to even complain about a man flashing young girls in a changing room. You can clearly see that from the video that was posted after the incident, the staff wouldn't even tell the guy to leave and some other male customer even went so far as to defend the flasher against the women complaining.
__________________

Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by GiRTh View Post
You compare Jim Davidson to Nelson Mandela?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus. View Post
I know, how stupid? He's more like Gandhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 7:14 View Post



Katie Hopkins reveals epilepsy made her suicidal - and says she identifies as a MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
Just because she is a giant cock, doesn't make her a man.
Niamh. is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 02:33 PM #22
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
user104658 user104658 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 36,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh. View Post
This is what I mean about Self ID actually hurting genuine trans people. It leaves the door wide open for people like the guy in the OP to abuse and it strongly restricts people's (mainly women and girls in situations like these) ability to even complain about a man flashing young girls in a changing room. You can clearly see that from the video that was posted after the incident, the staff wouldn't even tell the guy to leave and some other male customer even went so far as to defend the flasher against the women complaining.
The alarming part is that often it's not even down to what the staff want to do; people have been successfully terrified into not taking action in these situations because they're afraid that they'll be harassed out of their job, or their employer will be harassed into firing them, or that they'll be straight up doxxed online and get personal threats... or even that they'll face legal consequences. Mainly because all of these things have actually happened to people.
user104658 is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 02:40 PM #23
Niamh.'s Avatar
Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Niamh. Niamh. is offline
Hands off my Brick!
Niamh.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ireland-The peoples Republic of Cork!
Posts: 149,290

Favourites (more):
BB19: Cian
IAC2018: Rita Simons


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
The alarming part is that often it's not even down to what the staff want to do; people have been successfully terrified into not taking action in these situations because they're afraid that they'll be harassed out of their job, or their employer will be harassed into firing them, or that they'll be straight up doxxed online and get personal threats... or even that they'll face legal consequences. Mainly because all of these things have actually happened to people.
Yep I can absolutely understand that too. It's just mental that we're even in this kind of a situation tbh I read a tweet earlier where someone posted about how quick the #metoo movement is forgotten about. Women complain of sexual harassment and are called names and told to shut up. That's about a 50 year step backwards
__________________

Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by GiRTh View Post
You compare Jim Davidson to Nelson Mandela?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus. View Post
I know, how stupid? He's more like Gandhi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 7:14 View Post



Katie Hopkins reveals epilepsy made her suicidal - and says she identifies as a MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
Just because she is a giant cock, doesn't make her a man.
Niamh. is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 03:28 PM #24
Cherie's Avatar
Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Cherie Cherie is offline
This Witch doesn't burn
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 67,683

Favourites (more):
Strictly 2020: Bill Bailey
BB19: Sian


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain.Remy View Post
I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.

Tbh it would be great to have a conversation in good spirits, the problem is it seems we can’t, Just taking this case in isolation, there should have been an immediate red flag for the staff that this person exposed themselves, my feeling is pre op trans women would be respectful of being in a shared female space,we, men and women have all managed to change in a communal space or at the beach without exposing ourselves so to my mind this was a deliberate act which was then dealt with appallingly by the staff probably due to some of the reasons TS outlined above, so until we can move on from name calling or worse we are where we are
__________________
'put a bit of lippy on and run a brush through your hair, we are alcoholics, not savages'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beso
Livelier than Izaaz, and hes got 2 feet.
Cherie is offline  
Old 03-09-2021, 04:47 PM #25
Captain.Remy Captain.Remy is offline
Nah
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France.
Posts: 27,913


Captain.Remy Captain.Remy is offline
Nah
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France.
Posts: 27,913


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Tbh it would be great to have a conversation in good spirits, the problem is it seems we can’t, Just taking this case in isolation, there should have been an immediate red flag for the staff that this person exposed themselves, my feeling is pre op trans women would be respectful of being in a shared female space,we, men and women have all managed to change in a communal space or at the beach without exposing ourselves so to my mind this was a deliberate act which was then dealt with appallingly by the staff probably due to some of the reasons TS outlined above, so until we can move on from name calling or worse we are where we are
I believe both parties can't have a proper conversation currently and it's mostly due to social media amplifying everything and resorting to name calling way too easily.

Social media is not the best media to have any kind of serious conversation to begin with, let alone a discussion about rights in general.

At the shelter for LGBT+ people I partially work for, we try to organize debates based on those issues and I remember we hosted a discussion between cis women and trans women one day. Both groups had strong opinions but in the end it turned out to be super respectful and everyone got to talk.
No name calling and if I remember correctly the outcome was that more gender neutral places should exist. And both groups now walk together at Pride and at walks for womens rights etc
It's just an example and one of many possible outcomes but I feel like open face to face discussions do more good than bad.
__________________
Captain.Remy is offline  
Register to reply Log in to reply

Bookmark/share this topic

Tags
charged, erect, exposing, girl, penis, riot, sparked, trans, woman, young


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2025 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
 

About Us ThisisBigBrother.com

"Big Brother and UK Television Forum. Est. 2001"

 

© 2023
no new posts