[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't think a mental illness is prerequisite of being a murderer, you simply have to believe your actions are justified, hence why the whole of human history has in large part been shaped by wars and killings

i agree.

[Kizzy]

You have to ask what would make a rational mind capable of killing then.
What are the methods used and how are they implemented?

[Ninastar]

believing they are doing right by following a cult/religion for so many years.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You have to ask what would make a rational mind capable of killing then.
What are the methods used and how are they implemented?

So many questions and so few answers as to this problem and as you say if the mind was rational how could they be made to kill and in this case so brutally and in sucha barbaric way too.

That is why I can take on board Jack's statement that they cannot be wired up right in the first place.
In my view too that's likely, certainly in most cases anyway.

[Mrluvaluva]

http://news.sky.com/story/1095844/ma...oolwich-murder

Crazy

[Omah]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

So many questions and so few answers as to this problem and as you say if the mind was rational how could they be made to kill and in this case so brutally and in sucha barbaric way too.

Erm ..... in WWI and WWII (to name but 2 "conflicts"), millions of "rational minds" were "made to kill", brutally, barbarically and every other way - even elements of our beloved "Dad's Army" were trained in "terrorism" should Hitler invade our shores .....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Omah

Erm ..... in WWI and WWII (to name but 2 "conflicts", millions of "rational minds" were "made to kill", brutally, barbarically and every other way - even elements of our beloved "Dad's Army" were trained in "terrorism" should Hitler invade our shores .....

I am only asking the question Omah not stating anything as a fact.

Also while I accept your post above being accurate which it is.
I myself,speaking for myself, see a difference of people killing each other who are in mutually declared world wars armed against each other as opposed to the brutal barbaric murder of someone,even a serving Soldier, just walking in a street unarmed.

[thesheriff443]

these men where willing to kill and willing to die.
you don't have to be insane to murder someone that's why we have a system in which doctors test individuals who murder but claim to be insane. and in most cases it is proved they are sane!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Omah

Erm ..... in WWI and WWII (to name but 2 "conflicts"), millions of "rational minds" were "made to kill", brutally, barbarically and every other way - even elements of our beloved "Dad's Army" were trained in "terrorism" should Hitler invade our shores .....

That is not in even nearly the same context as is being discussed omah...

[MTVN]

However incorrect they might be in their distorted view of the world they are also fighting a war; they think that the West has waged war on the Islamic world and they are fighting back on behalf of it

I actually think that dismissing them as insane sort of alleviates responsibility for what they did as though they weren't in proper control of their minds and their actions, when clearly they planned this operation, specifically picked a soldier as a target, deliberately carried out the murder to increase the shock value, and then sought to have people film them so they could try and justify it

Edit - and like Sheriff said there are quite rigorous and extensive examinations done of peoples mental health after they've carried out such crimes, they don't universally find people insane

[Omah]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am only asking the question Omah not stating anything as a fact.

Also while I accept your post above being accurate which it is.
I myself,speaking for myself, see a difference of people killing each other who are in mutually declared world wars armed against each other as opposed to the brutal barbaric murder of someone,even a serving Soldier, just walking in a street unarmed.

That's exactly the sort of thing that elements of "Dad's Army", which as you know, was made up of butchers, bankers and boys, were trained to do should this country be invaded - they would retreat to underground bunkers then emerge at night to cause mayhem amongst the invaders, killing brutally, barbarically and every other way - the life span of these previously "rationally-minded" men was estimated as a maximum of 2 weeks .....

Similarly, non-combatants, particularly women, were selected for the SOE, where they were trained in all the methods of killing serving soldiers, behind enemy lines, armed or not .....

Michael Adebolajo said he had carried out his attack because British soldiers killed Muslims every day.

No doubt a similar justification could have been used by the "civilians" of SOE - German soldiers are killing non-Germans every day, so we'll kill German soldiers any way we can - the knife, the garrotte, the bullet or the bomb .....

"War" is frequently just a matter of perception :

President John F. Kennedy , early 1961, when he secretly sent 400 Special Operations Forces-trained (Green Beret) soldiers to teach the South Vietnamese how to fight what was called counterinsurgency war against Communist guerrillas in South Vietnam.

When Kennedy was assassinated in November 1963, there were more than 16,000 U.S. military advisers in South Vietnam, and more than 100 Americans had been killed.

Kennedy's successor, Lyndon B. Johnson, in August 1964, secured from Congress a functional (not actual) declaration of war: the Tonkin Gulf Resolution.

Then, in February and March 1965, Johnson authorized the sustained bombing, by U.S. aircraft, of targets north of the 17th parallel, and on 8 March dispatched 3,500 Marines to South Vietnam. Legal declaration or no, the United States was now at war.

This was not a "mutually declared world war" .....

That was why I used the word "conflict" .....

[Kizzy]

Yes it is the randomness that is becoming an issue, not specifically rich or poor, just identified and targetted. It will be apparent to them quickly who are suggestible and easily manipulated, these will then be indoctrinated.
They withdraw from friends, family becoming increasingly isolated until such time as they are called to 'martyr' themselves.
To them they are not mad or bad, but they are being used as instruments in a war, as was said on jacks link, everyone is condemning it but there is no searching for a real solution.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That is not in even nearly the same context as is being discussed omah...

Of course it is ..... Some FMS seem to think that you have to be "mad" to kill .....

[Omah]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

these men where willing to kill and willing to die.
you don't have to be insane to murder someone that's why we have a system in which doctors test individuals who murder but claim to be insane. and in most cases it is proved they are sane!

I agree .....

[Omah]

Originally Posted by MTVN

However incorrect they might be in their distorted view of the world they are also fighting a war; they think that the West has waged war on the Islamic world and they are fighting back on behalf of it

I actually think that dismissing them as insane sort of alleviates responsibility for what they did as though they weren't in proper control of their minds and their actions, when clearly they planned this operation, specifically picked a soldier as a target, deliberately carried out the murder to increase the shock value, and then sought to have people film them so they could try and justify it

Well put .....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Omah

Of course it is ..... Some FMS seem to think that you have to be "mad" to kill .....

You keep referring to 'dads army' and how it was routine to kill, I disagree there are soldiers now who are severely traumatised by having to kill, it is never something you 'just do'.
The recruitment of young men by hate clerics is nowhere near the same thing either.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You keep referring to 'dads army' and how it was routine to kill.

No, I don't .....

Where did I say "routine" .....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Omah

No, I don't .....

Where did I say "routine" .....

''they would retreat to underground bunkers then emerge at night to cause mayhem amongst the invaders, killing brutally, barbarically and every other way''

This sounds as if it was relatively routine, but that isn't the point here is it?

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

''they would retreat to underground bunkers then emerge at night to cause mayhem amongst the invaders, killing brutally, barbarically and every other way''

This sounds as if it was relatively routine, but that isn't the point here is it?

"Sounds", eh ?

You heard it as "routine" but I didn't say it .....

"Sounds" as if your imagination is playing tricks .....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Omah

"Sounds", eh ?

You heard it as "routine" but I didn't say it .....

"Sounds" as if your imagination is playing tricks .....

Well now you are just derailing the thread.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well now you are just derailing the thread.

No, you are making a good job of that .....

[arista]

Originally Posted by Mrluvaluva

http://news.sky.com/story/1095844/ma...oolwich-murder

Crazy

Yes but at least he is Alive

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

believing they are doing right by following a cult/religion for so many years.

Yes Good Point

Extreme Muslims follow Allah

[joeysteele]

I can really see all sides to this, including what Omah said as well to be fair.

I can only look at myself though as a person and I know,I couldn't be 'brainwashed' into killing people at random, especially anyone unarmed like Lee Rigby was last week.
If this Country was at war as in the world wars, then obviously I would probably get called up and have to go, I would though then be fighting against armed enemies and alongside my fellow soldiers.
Not only then defending myself and hopefully loved ones at home but also my fellow soldiers fighting alongside me.

However,outside of that, no organisation could so fill me with general hate to the point where I took on ridiculous nonsense to the point of not killing in a defending sense but killing brutally for very little or no meaning whatsoever,no matter the perceived cause.

That is why I still hold more to Jack's view on this that people who can be indoctrinated that way must at least in some way not be wired up right in the first place to be 'made' to or at least most of them being so.
These people don't have in the main the real established elements of their faith condoning their actions so why listen to bitter hate filled wannabees and then do what they tell them to.

I don't know the answers,any of the answers, I am not the intelligence organisations, I can only make observations from my own perspective and how I think.
What I saw on and in the media last week is not something I think could be termed any legitimate act in any way and not even in a war zone situation either.

I can see all sides to these arguments,which is why I choose not to dismiss others points because really none of us have the answers to this issue and for me even less so after the horrific event of last week.

[arista]

Newsround would not show the ITV News clip



Thats wrong
they could Pause it
hide it from young children - BBC Confusion