[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

All human behaviour is learned. From the day we are born the brain starts to receive information and is conditioned throughout our life to create our personality which includes our sexuality.

Sex is all in the mind. Ask yourself this question - what turns me on and makes me sexually stimulated. Think of everything, then ask yourself why? Its because the brain became conditioned to associate that thought with sexual arousal.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Good post

and we are finding more and more that males and females are mostly similar and that all the differences are learned (just think of the stereotypes "girls like... or girls are good at...)

But we are born with our sexuality. Sure we learn behavior, but that doesn't mean you can learn to be straight, didn't someone try to electrocute gay people to try and make them straight, that thinking comes from the idea that we choose our sexuality; and I don't believe we do.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But we are born with our sexuality. Sure we learn behavior, but that doesn't mean you can learn to be straight, didn't someone try to electrocute gay people to try and make them straight, that thinking comes from the idea that we choose our sexuality; and I don't believe we do.

there is no evidence to suggest we are born with any innate sexuality. heterosexuality is what keeps us going as a species via evolution.

it has nothing to do with choice. do you think we are born to love or choose to be exclusively turned on by rubber, born to only have an orgasm if we see a jet aircraft take off (one case is known) born to only like to be submissive, born to like to be bound and gagged?

it is an interesting debate. would you suggest that one is born to be a rapist or a peadophile or is that learned?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

there is no evidence to suggest we are born with any innate sexuality. heterosexuality is what keeps us going as a species via evolution.

it has nothing to do with choice. do you think we are born to love or choose to be exclusively turned on by rubber, born to only have an orgasm if we see a jet aircraft take off (one case is known) born to only like to be submissive, born to like to be bound and gagged?

it is an interesting debate. would you suggest that one is born to be a rapist or a peadophile or is that learned?

I believe that most of us are born heterosexual (not learned to be) as you said because of procreation. I think some people for one reason or another when they are being formed within the womb for some reason or another, maybe some sort of extra hormone or whatever are born gay.

As for rapists, I think that is less to do with sexuality and more to do with power and control.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

there is no evidence to suggest we are born with any innate sexuality. heterosexuality is what keeps us going as a species via evolution.

So you are saying that all people who are attracted to the same sex have been influenced by the way they grew up?

it has nothing to do with choice. do you think we are born to love or choose to be exclusively turned on by rubber, born to only have an orgasm if we see a jet aircraft take off (one case is known) born to only like to be submissive, born to like to be bound and gagged?

Maybe you're mixing up being attracted to a gender and stuff like the specifics of what turn people on and fetishes.

it is an interesting debate. would you suggest that one is born to be a rapist or a peadophile or is that learned?

Both groups should be castrated, and have those radio transmitters on their ankles. And to answer your question I think they are born that way.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

So you are saying that all people who are attracted to the same sex have been influenced by the way they grew up?


Maybe you're mixing up being attracted to a gender and stuff like the specifics of what turn people on and fetishes.



Both groups should be castrated, and have those radio transmitters on their ankles. And to answer your question I think they are born that way.

I don't think that rapists are born that way, I think it's something learned and don't even necessarily believe it's sexual but a warped way of feeling powerful and in control.

Paedophiles, I don't know, I mean alot of times paedophiles were victims themselves when they were younger so that would suggest that, in those cases anyway, it was learned

[30stone]

Who would have thunk it.

[Patrick]

Of course she's gay with a name like Kitten.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

So you are saying that all people who are attracted to the same sex have been influenced by the way they grew up?

I am suggesting so yes, i dont see any difference in any other break from the norm sexual proclivity


Maybe you're mixing up being attracted to a gender and stuff like the specifics of what turn people on and fetishes.

I use that as an example of a powerful, unconmtrolled sexual urge that is learned



Both groups should be castrated, and have those radio transmitters on their ankles. And to answer your question I think they are born that way.

But as neeeeeeeve suggests it seems to be that it is a leaned aspect ie being abused themselves

I dont want to get into a paedophile/gay argument as it is not one that any gay person would like and i would not like to be in the same argument if i were gay but it does lend itself to the debate, and debate it is currently

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

But as neeeeeeeve suggests it seems to be that it is a leaned aspect ie being abused themselves

I dont want to get into a paedophile/gay argument as it is not one that any gay person would like and i would not like to be in the same argument if i were gay but it does lend itself to the debate, and debate it is currently

Yeah, I don't see them as being similar anyway. Rape and Paedophilia are both forms of abuse and control over another person, and as I've said I don't necessarily see them as a primarily sexual thing.

Being gay imo is exactly the same as being heterosexual in the sense that it doesn't hurt others and it's simply being with a different gender to the "norm".

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, I don't see them as being similar anyway. Rape and Paedophilia are both forms of abuse and control over another person, and as I've said I don't necessarily see them as a primarily sexual thing.

Being gay imo is exactly the same as being heterosexual in the sense that it doesn't hurt others and it's simply being with a different gender to the "norm".

i get that but it is only seen as abuse and control at the moment, in ancient greek times it was seen as normal and in other parts of the world it is seen as normal.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i get that but it is only seen as abuse and control at the moment, in ancient greek times it was seen as normal and in other parts of the world it is seen as normal.

What, rape and paedophilia?

well, whatever the opinion of the time is doesn't matter to me really, If one participant is being forced and is not enjoying it then it's abuse.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What, rape and paedophilia?

well, whatever the opinion of the time is doesn't matter to me really, If one participant is being forced and is not enjoying it then it's abuse.

the former not the latter and it was the norm and evidence suggests that it was mutual!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the former not the latter and it was the norm and evidence suggests that it was mutual!

well, If it was mutual than it's not really rape is it?

[LemonJam]

I'm in the minority here, I'm with LT on this one.

Most of the gay people I know have had little/poor relationships with one of their parental figures. My male friends who are bought up around predominantly female figures turned out gay and my female friend who was bought up around predominantly male figures turned out gay. This is just from my friends and I'm not saying they're a study sample.

Also if there was something in the genetics from birth, wouldn't scientists have found it by now?

[Crimson Dynamo]

but it being to do with your upbringing does not make it any less valid, if you see what i mean

i know that if it were a fact that you are born that way it would make being gay easier

[cub]

Being gay has nothing to do with upbringing or personality. You sexuality makes you gay and everyone is slightly different. Whether you are attracted to white people, black people or asians is based on your sexual make up/personal desires.

My father was the dominant person in our household - not that he was aggressive; he was just the boss. He certainly wasn't absent and was there all through my upbringing. My mother worked so she wasn't a stay at home parent.

My brother is heterosexual. I am gay. Were it true than upbringing or nurture decided one's sexuality. We'd both be straight or gay.

[Jackie]

Doesn't matter if shes gay as long as shes happy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by cub

Being gay has nothing to do with upbringing or personality. You sexuality makes you gay and everyone is slightly different. Whether you are attracted to white people, black people or asians is based on your sexual make up/personal desires.

My father was the dominant person in our household - not that he was aggressive; he was just the boss. He certainly wasn't absent and was there all through my upbringing. My mother worked so she wasn't a stay at home parent.

My brother is heterosexual. I am gay. Were it true than upbringing or nurture decided one's sexuality. We'd both be straight or gay.

we have been through this pov

the fact that 2 close siblings often have different personalities and traits is evidence enough that no 2 children have the same upbringing or relationship with their parents. Your parents relationship can change in 1 week, month, year and greatly influences who you are.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jackie

Doesn't matter if shes gay as long as shes happy.

it does matter greatly to her

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What, rape and paedophilia?

well, whatever the opinion of the time is doesn't matter to me really, If one participant is being forced and is not enjoying it then it's abuse.

Yeah in some parts of the world it's considered acceptable for a husband to be able to rape his wife, the same with paedophillia. It was acceptable in this country only a few hundred years ago; in Romeo and Juliet for example, Juliet is only 13 and (although noone knows for sure) Romeo is presumed to be late teens/early 20's.

Whether they're born that way I'd say that rapists are not. I'm not sure about peadophilia though.

[cub]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

we have been through this pov

the fact that 2 close siblings often have different personalities and traits is evidence enough that no 2 children have the same upbringing or relationship with their parents. Your parents relationship can change in 1 week, month, year and greatly influences who you are.

I'm sorry if I've not read every post of this long thread.

However, you're just making an excuse for a flawed argument that absent father and over bearing mother makes a gay. I had neither. My brother is straight. Therefore another "Ah, but!" is raised and that conflicts with the augument.

My parents influenced me as a personality, but not my sexuality. My sexuality has nothing to do with learned behaviour or personality. Sorry.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by cub

I'm sorry if I've not read every post of this long thread.

However, you're just making an excuse for a flawed argument that absent father and over bearing mother makes a gay. I had neither. My brother is straight. Therefore another "Ah, but!" is raised and that conflicts with the augument.

I would imagine that is why I said this "Often a gay male has a dominant mother figure and a poor father relationship." and not used the word "always"

My parents influenced me as a personality, but not my sexuality. My sexuality has nothing to do with learned behaviour or personality. Sorry.

Well you would have no idea about that as you would not have been aware. As stated in this thread studies have already been done that link awakening sexuality and circumstance but never is the person aware.

[BB_Eye]

I think it's important that gay people don't fear the suggestion that upbringing is a part of their sexuality (there really is no black and white answer to this as nature and nurture are so closely intertwined). This reminds me of the time the lesbian writer Julie Bindel got a serious backlash from the gay community for daring to suggest "if we really wanted to be straight, we would be".

Personally, I think it needed to be said. There is a whole world out there of differing worldviews, personalities, aesthetic tastes and religious views (or lack thereof). Therefore, even if we had any measure of control over our sexual preference, then so what? Take ownership of it. Why so anxious to reassure the moral majority that 'okay my taste in partners might seem disgusting to you, but it's not my fault... honest'? To me, same sex partners are infinitely preferable to those of the opposite sex. That's how inclinations work. It might not be a 'choice', but I dislike that word anyway as it presupposes that old Catholic misnomer; 'free will'.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

there is no evidence to suggest we are born with any innate sexuality. heterosexuality is what keeps us going as a species via evolution.

Yes, there is. The majority of scientists are convinced that it occurs due to certain genetic makeup. It's a mixture of genes.

Sexuality is hard wired. That's a fact, and not up for debate. Sexuality has been studied for centuries.

Homosexuality controls population growth.

Homosexuality exists throughout the entire animal kingdom. Are you saying that they learned it from somewhere?

You're incredibly ignorant. Either educate yourself with the facts, or don't bother commenting.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I think it's important that gay people don't fear the suggestion that upbringing is a part of their sexuality (there really is no black and white answer to this as nature and nurture are so closely intertwined). This reminds me of the time the lesbian writer Julie Bindel got a serious backlash from the gay community for daring to suggest "if we really wanted to be straight, we would be".

Personally, I think it needed to be said. There is a whole world out there of differing worldviews, personalities, aesthetic tastes and religious views (or lack thereof). Therefore, even if we had any measure of control over our sexual preference, then so what? Take ownership of it. Why so anxious to reassure the moral majority that 'okay my taste in partners might seem disgusting to you, but it's not my fault... honest'? To me, same sex partners are infinitely preferable to those of the opposite sex. That's how inclinations work. It might not be a 'choice', but I dislike that word anyway as it presupposes that old Catholic misnomer; 'free will'.

No. There is science, and then there is bigotry. It's not up for debate. People who think homosexuality is learned, and/or can be "cured", are bigots. End of discussion.