[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It was too beautiful for this thread Alex :')

*blushes*

[Vicky.]

I dont actually get whats so degrading about being put in handcuffs?

Maybe slightly the leg restraints but if he was going on ridiculous and kicking out at them then of course its needed.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont actually get whats so degrading about being put in handcuffs?

Maybe slightly the leg restraints but if he was going on ridiculous and kicking out at them then of course its needed.

Yeah, especially since that report Kizzy posted states that Police are NOT trained in dealing with Autistic people.

[Kizzy]

Its not good enough to say 'i didn't know' when you are in a position of authority though. The money used to launch an appeal could be used to train officers couldn't it?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Its not good enough to say 'i didn't know' when you are in a position of authority though. The money used to launch an appeal could be used to train officers couldn't it?

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

they may or may not have been trained but there are guidelines ...If they didn't follow them they risked breaking the law themselves. It seems unfair but thats how it is, you have to stick to the rules or you find yourself liable for prosecution.

[Vicky.]

I may be missing the point entirely, but I'm still not getting why its so awful to put an autistic person in handcuffs while it would be perfectly acceptable to do that to a non-autistic person.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kizzy

they may or may not have been trained but there are guidelines ...If they didn't follow them they risked breaking the law themselves. It seems unfair but thats how it is, you have to stick to the rules or you find yourself liable for prosecution.

But the article you just posted says : "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people."

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

Perhaps it would be a good idea for the windfall that was received by the family to be donated to the National Autistic Society to help raise awareness and fund training. What an amazing gesture that would be and it should get them a good few column inches in the press if awareness is really what they were promiting. Unless they were only in it for the money... in which case they should keep it and have a couple of holidays and a new car.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I may be missing the point entirely, but I'm still not getting why its so awful to put an autistic person in handcuffs while it would be perfectly acceptable to do that to a non-autistic person.

I'm not sure either. Ammi is quite knowledgeable on this subject because of her work. Perhaps she can explain to both of us when she gets on.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Perhaps it would be a good idea for the windfall that was received by the family to be donated to the National Autistic Society to help raise awareness and fund training. What an amazing gesture that would be and it should get them a good few column inches in the press if awareness is really what they were promiting. Unless they were only in it for the money... in which case they should keep it and have a couple of holidays and a new car.

Indeed, it does seem that the money would be far better spent on training police in dealing with Autistic people who may be in danger or causing danger to others.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure either. Ammi is quite knowledgeable on this subject because of her work. Perhaps she can explain to both of us when she gets on.

Ammi stated yesterday she had nothing further to add to this thread.I'm surprised you referred to her work livia considering you accused me of being rude for that recently.
Last year I completed a degree in Public Services, I don't for one second mean that makes my view on this subject any more or less valid than the next persons.
This case highlights in my opinion that mistakes can and will be made, officers are not infallible.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

But the article you just posted says : "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people."

There are guidelines on everything devised by the NPIA and ACPO. We do not know what training these officers recieved so cannot comment. However, to take a case to court there has to be a case to be heard.
There was and rightly or wrongly they were found to have broken several laws in their handling of the incident.
What the family recieves by way of compensation is not the issue here is it?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kizzy

There are guidelines on everything devised by the NPIA and ACPO. We do not know what training these officers recieved so cannot comment. However, to take a case to court there has to be a case to be heard.
There was and rightly or wrongly they were found to have broken several laws in their handling of the incident.
What the family recieves by way of compensation is not the issue here is it?

And equally they have the same right as everybody else to appeal that decision, if they feel that the judgement was unfair.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

And equally they have the same right as everybody else to appeal that decision, if they feel that the judgement was unfair.

Of course they do, everyone has that right.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Ammi stated yesterday she had nothing further to add to this thread.I'm surprised you referred to her work livia considering you accused me of being rude for that recently.
Last year I completed a degree in Public Services, I don't for one second mean that makes my view on this subject any more or less valid than the next persons.
This case highlights in my opinion that mistakes can and will be made, officers are not infallible.

You just can't help yourself...

I referred to Ammi's work ONLY because it is relevant to this thread. My work is not relevant to every thread and does not deserve comments like "you're not in the commons bar now, dear" which is the post I found to be rude. Politics is what I do. It is not who I am. My degree is in law.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You just can't help yourself...

I referred to Ammi's work ONLY because it is relevant to this thread. My work is not relevant to every thread and does not deserve comments like "you're not in the commons bar now, dear" which is the post I found to be rude. Politics is what I do. It is not who I am. My degree is in law.

I have the right to reply livia, I cannot be held responsible for your overreaction to comments i make.
Do you have any further comments regarding the issue in discussion or not?

[Ammi]

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kizzy

I have the right to reply livia, I cannot be held responsible for your overreaction to comments i make.
Do you have any further comments regarding the issue in discussion or not?

I have nothing to say to you... no.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have nothing to say to you... no.

Thankyou, maybe following the appeal there will be a different outcome we shall see

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

That makes absolute and complete sense Ammi. Great post.

[Jessica.]

Absolutely disgusting.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

Brilliant post, says everything as to this issue really.

[Kizzy]

Shackled in the back of a police van is not a safe place,and due to the severity of his condition the boy suffered post traumatic stress.
I am playing devils advocate here, if it was my child what would i do?
Much as i am fully supportive of, and have worked alongside the police on many projects i have to say i would have done the same. Not for any kind of monetary gain but as ammi said to raise awareness.
The reaction of the Met to refuse an apology surprises me, if they do not have the required training then officers are vulnerable to critism and prosecution.

Lets not forget this is not a criminal, but a child, a disabled child.
Would it not have been possible, with the help of pool staff to contain him in the shallow area of the pool where the threat of drowning was minimal, untill his legal guardians arrived?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Brilliant post, says everything as to this issue really.

It is a brilliant post, joey. Informed and balanced.