[Shaun]

Bali's not a country f/

[Ammi]

..I don't think there's any doubt she broke the law or that there isn't a consequence to that but it's ok for us to say that there may have been another solution if her children were in danger..we weren't put in that position or had to live through it..it's hardly a 'clear thinking' situation...no one knows how they will react or how far they will go if they're terrified..especially for the safety of their children...her mind must have been in chaos....

...I agree though whatever the circumstances, because of the seriousness of her crime, she must be punished...but in any civilisation, whatever their laws..standing an elderly lady against a wall and firing bullets into her until she is dead is barbaric, pimitive and evil....

[Livia]

She's fifty six. I wouldn't call that "elderly". She's a year older than Madonna and she's out there travelling the world, she's not some frail old grandmother even though the media keep pressing the word "grandmother on to us. She could be a grandmother at 35... or younger... And although I'm not arguing that the death penalty is harsh, I know that is the consequence of getting caught smuggling drugs in Indonesia. Is there anyone on here who has ever been to that part of the world and isn't fully aware of their laws on drug smuggling? She must have known it... they make it very clear.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Sticks

And what of justice for those whose lives are destroyed by drugs and drug related crimes?

A line must be drawn in the sand!

And what of it? Are you not yourself capable of imagining such middle grounds yourself that you need to beg the question?

People should be allowed do what they want, when they want with their own bodies and minds so long as they don't harm anyone else. If they do harm anyone else then bring the justice.

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person. We've waged a war on that bag and have tried to put it in the courts and prisons for decades now and it's not working.

In fact the illegal environment created and sustained by this total exercise in futility has resulted and facilitating numerous dangers and hazards that could be minimized or side stepped entirely by a more rational approach.

So you go about your justice swiftly and fairly. But you leave the drugs out of it. People are the problem.

Originally Posted by Livia

She's fifty six. I wouldn't call that "elderly". She's a year older than Madonna and she's out there travelling the world, she's not some frail old grandmother even though the media keep pressing the word "grandmother on to us. She could be a grandmother at 35... or younger... And although I'm not arguing that the death penalty is harsh, I know that is the consequence of getting caught smuggling drugs in Indonesia. Is there anyone on here who has ever been to that part of the world and isn't fully aware of their laws on drug smuggling? She must have known it... they make it very clear.

I accept this point.

[cobdo]

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person.That bag of powder can make people violent and impairs their ability to reason

[Stu]

Originally Posted by cobdo

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person.That bag of powder can make people violent and impairs their ability to reason

So can a range of other stimuli. Let's keep it to the person. It's a whole lot easier.

I've used drugs responsibly in the past. Thousands of people do every weekend. We don't all morph into merciless thugs because we already had a good head on us. The people that indulge in violent acts don't and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Coating the world in bubble wrap so knuckle draggers don't scrape their hands is not the solution.

[cobdo]

Originally Posted by Stu

So can a range of other stimuli. Let's keep it to the person. It's a whole lot easier.

I've used drugs responsibly in the past. Thousands of people do every weekend. We don't all morph into merciless thugs because we already had a good head on us. The people that indulge in violent acts don't and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Coating the world in bubble wrap so knuckle draggers don't scrape their hands is not the solution.

Very true ,if ya gonna ban drugs then i suppose you have to ban alcohol.

[Ninastar]

Livia.

[Shasown]

Its dead simple, you do the crime, you do the time.

Regardless of where in the world you are.

[Ammi]

..the woman was naive/stupid, she did wrong..for whatever the reason..if she was terrified and it was to protect her children then how unfortunate...

..I would have thought that to spend 15 years in a Bali prison cell would not only be punishment enough for her and her family, but also send a very strong message to anyone else that might wish to try it...

..but no, let’s shoot her...perhaps it’ll get through to her the seriousness of her crime..she won’t do that again and people will see what a wonderful culture and a great place to visit....



..I’m sorry, I know I’m being stupid and emotional about this but we should remember that it was recommended 15 years imprisonment...they decided to change that because she ‘damaged the image of the tourist industry’...how ironic.....

..if this execution actually happens I doubt anyone will feel a sense of justice....just sickening...


EDIT:.....and to put this into perspective, she was caught smuggling and the drugs didn’t get out into circulation..no one was hurt in her crime...yes they could have been, but they weren’t....there are lots of bad people out there who do actually hurt people, just living their lives and no one was hurt for this woman's crime except her and her family...in my opinion, that's enough.....

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..the woman was naive/stupid, she did wrong..for whatever the reason..if she was terrified and it was to protect her children then how unfortunate...

..I would have thought that to spend 15 years in a Bali prison cell would not only be punishment enough for her and her family, but also send a very strong message to anyone else that might wish to try it...

..but no, let’s shoot her...perhaps it’ll get through to her the seriousness of her crime..she won’t do that again and people will see what a wonderful culture and a great place to visit....



..I’m sorry, I know I’m being stupid and emotional about this but we should remember that it was recommended 15 years imprisonment...they decided to change that because she ‘damaged the image of the tourist industry’...how ironic.....

..if this execution actually happens I doubt anyone will feel a sense of justice....just sickening...

I am sure her sentence will be commuted to 15 years Ammi....in my mind , this turn around by the judge is more about showing the world what they can do but I doubt very much they will do it. There is the appeals process and clemency and I am sure our Foreign office will be involved too.

Whether she was naive or spinning a very good story about her children being threatened we will never know

[Ammi]

..and this decision wasn’t made because of the danger and seriousness of those drugs on the street..it was made because of potential damage to the tourist industry of Bali...that’s what we’re told so that’s what we can believe...there is no consideration or value for life in this...anyone’s life....not hers or anyone's that could have been affected...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by anniek76

I am sure her sentence will be commuted to 15 years Ammi....in my mind , this turn around by the judge is more about showing the world what they can do but I doubt very much they will do it. There is the appeals process and clemency and I am sure our Foreign office will be involved too.

Whether she was naive or spinning a very good story about her children being threatened we will never know

There isn't much that the FCO can do, really. They can't tell another country that their legal system is wrong, even thought they state categorically that they are against the death penalty. They can negotiate, but there's no guarantee they will be able to help. Apparently this woman is one of 12 Brits facing the death penalty around the world.

The death sentence for this crime has been in place there for years, it's not something they thought up for this particular woman, so the intimation that it's for the sake of the tourist industry is hard to believe. And all the stuff about her giving them information in order to lighten her own sentence might just be BS. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has been arrested on the strength of her evidence.

[MTVN]

As Ammi points out though, carrying out this crime doesn't necessitate the death penalty being given, the fact that even the prosecution only pushed for a 15 year jail term suggests that death by firing squad could still be considered an unfair and disproportionate punishment, even by the standards of the Indonesian justice system

[Livia]

It's the judge who has the final say when it comes to sentencing, not the prosecution; they can suggest a sentence but that's all. She was caught in possession of drugs and found guilty of attempting to smuggle them in to Bali. The sentence for that is death. The defence claimed (and this was obviously accepted by the prosectution) there were mitigating circumstances because she named names. Perhaps no prosecutions were forthcoming on the strength of that evidence, I don't know. She'll be allowed to appeal, but only her legal team will be able to advise her if it's even worth it. It's all guesswork of course, none of us know the actual details of the trial.

[Sticks]

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives, and I suspect they will execute her to show that the west has no right to dictate to them, and rightly so.

I have more sympathy with victims of crime

The law is the law

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives, and I suspect they will execute her to show that the west has no right to dictate to them, and rightly so.

I have more sympathy with victims of crime

The law is the law

The death penalty is not a deterrent and if nothing else it's retarded and heartless. No matter what she did, she doesn't deserve to be killed - nobody does.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives.

Would you be in favor of a similar judicial approach in the U.K., regardless of possibility? I have had drugs in my back pocket before. What sort of punishment would you see as fitting for me had I ever been caught? [I haven't. I'm good.]

Drugs don't kill and destroy lives. Some people destroy on drugs. I know plenty of casual drug users and not one of them has ever destroyed a life. A few that I know will to be fair wake up stupefied and twenty five with nothing going on in their lives but that is their problem. Blaming an ongoing failure of a life on the chemicals you imbibe is essentially abdicating yourself of any personal responsibility. It's a lazy and useless attitude.

The illegal environment created and sustained by this total exercise in futility has resulted and facilitating numerous dangers and hazards that could be minimized or side stepped entirely by a more rational approach. So you go about your justice swiftly and fairly. But you leave the drugs out of it. People are the problem.

Yeah I'm copy and pasting, now. We will kill her to show drugs kill. They will kill her to show drug laws kill. The western world will progress to a safer, more liberal more hygienic drug marketplace and nothing will stop it.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's the judge who has the final say when it comes to sentencing, not the prosecution; they can suggest a sentence but that's all. She was caught in possession of drugs and found guilty of attempting to smuggle them in to Bali. The sentence for that is death. The defence claimed (and this was obviously accepted by the prosectution) there were mitigating circumstances because she named names. Perhaps no prosecutions were forthcoming on the strength of that evidence, I don't know. She'll be allowed to appeal, but only her legal team will be able to advise her if it's even worth it. It's all guesswork of course, none of us know the actual details of the trial.

Takes 10 years
they say.

[Niall]

It sickens me to the core that the death penalty is still in such wide usage across the world. I feel so sorry for this woman, if she's had mental health issues surely the Indonesian courts should reconsider? It's so harsh a punishment to give someone.

I really do hope she's given a reprieve or just a regular jail sentence. This is just disgusting..

[Jake.]

[Sticks]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime

[Ammi]

..I hope that humanity prevails and she doesn't get the death sentence..it's totally barbaric and as outrageous as some of the other punishments handed out by certain countries....

Cases could include incidents where a Briton was "sentenced to 30 lashes because they are gay - or a sentence for driving a car because you are a woman".

[arista]

Originally Posted by Sticks

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime

Except no one has be Executed for many years.
Infact they are think of getting rid of it now.

Ref: Ch4News , SkyNewsHD , Ch5News

[Me. I Am Salman]

sad news.