[Kizzy]

Nobody was christian bashing though? Everyone is entitled to their view if that's atheist, agnostic or pagan.
Don't worry there's always the jam and jerusalem brigade from middle England, onward christian soldiers.....

[user104658]

I struggle with this... I know a couple of devout Christians and thwyre very nice, kind, generous people and they get a lot out of the church and the community that surrounds it, a lot of strength and support in tough times, which can only be a good thing.

However, trying to take organised reliion seriously is almost impossible. It's quite clearly ridiculous. They not only sound like fairytales but also it's very obvious (and understandable) WHY they exist (fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging), which makes them even less believable, IMO.

It's like trying to keep a straight face whilst someone tells you in all sincerity that their best friend is Spiderman.

But each to their own... I suppose... so long as they're not hurting anyone (another debate, and certainly not all or even the majority of "believers" do harm) then each to their own. I personally find the whole concept as mad as a bag of frogs. And it's certainly not a "national disgrace" that the churches are seeing less attendance and support. Gone are the day's when "faith" was enforced through government, thankfully, and so keeping their flock is entirely their own responsibility. People aren't interested. It's as simple as that.


Side note on Christmas: it's true that it hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years. But I'm afraid it also hasn't been a Christian one for at least three decades. You can't willingly accept the former whilst denying that the latter is also perfectly valid.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I struggle with this... I know a couple of devout Christians and thwyre very nice, kind, generous people and they get a lot out of the church and the community that surrounds it, a lot of strength and support in tough times, which can only be a good thing.

However, trying to take organised reliion seriously is almost impossible. It's quite clearly ridiculous. They not only sound like fairytales but also it's very obvious (and understandable) WHY they exist (fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging), which makes them even less believable, IMO.

It's like trying to keep a straight face whilst someone tells you in all sincerity that their best friend is Spiderman.

But each to their own... I suppose... so long as they're not hurting anyone (another debate, and certainly not all or even the majority of "believers" do harm) then each to their own. I personally find the whole concept as mad as a bag of frogs. And it's certainly not a "national disgrace" that the churches are seeing less attendance and support. Gone are the day's when "faith" was enforced through government, thankfully, and so keeping their flock is entirely their own responsibility. People aren't interested. It's as simple as that.


Side note on Christmas: it's true that it hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years. But I'm afraid it also hasn't been a Christian one for at least three decades. You can't willingly accept the former whilst denying that the latter is also perfectly valid.

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

Originally Posted by Livia

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

I'm not saying I agree with everything that was said, but the definition of faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence. To call someone too shallow to have that position (which I know you weren't doing) just wouldn't be an insult, because it's absurd.

Even parts of scripture that may carry truth, still carry more myth along with it. If you read a child some of the stories from the monotheistic books, then there is a huge amount of insanity in there.

To play devils advocate for a second, what is the difference between Samson killing 1000 philistines with the jawbone of a donkey, and spiderman fighting Dr. Octopus?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I'm not saying I agree with everything that was said, but the definition of faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence. To call someone too shallow to have that position (which I know you weren't doing) just wouldn't be an insult, because it's absurd.

Even parts of scripture that may carry truth, still carry more myth along with it. If you read a child some of the stories from the monotheistic books, then there is a huge amount of insanity in there.

To play devils advocate for a second, what is the difference between Samson killing 1000 philistines with the jawbone of a donkey, and spiderman fighting Dr. Octopus?

Well... for a start, Samson was a warrior and leader who fought against a cruel oppressor... so I imagine he'd be right up your Strasse. Is it all true, or open to interpretation as stories often are? It's up to the individual to struggle with that question and everyone's interpretation will differ.

Spiderman is a comic book character made up by Stan Lee who, as far as I know, has never claimed to be God.

[Niamh.]

Great post Toy Soldier, that's pretty much exactly my thoughts on the whole thing as well. It must be nice sometimes though to really believe in it all so much. My daughters grandmother recently died of a brain tumor and she was very religious, it was a great comfort to her when she was dying, she really believed she was going to heaven which must have been comforting to her family as well to see that she wasn't afraid

[Kizzy]

You can have that level of faith in christianity/god without the conflicting views of the church of England/ catholicism though.
The King James bible was written to control the masses, it's not working anymore.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You can have that level of faith in christianity/god without the conflicting views of the church of England/ catholicism though.
The King James bible was written to control the masses, it's not working anymore.

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

Ahh come on, even a Christian historian would take issue with this claim, surely? The Roman Empire initially was originally threatened by Christianity, it could see the speed at which the religion was growing, and so it adopted it and used it as a system of control, often through forced conversion. It wasn't created to control the masses (whether you believe in it's "truth" or not) but it certainly HAS been used to that end and has been several times throughout history (Romans, Crusades, colonization of Africa, colonisation of the American continent, etc.). To say otherwise is... well... it's just turning a blind eye to history .

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Ahh come on, even a Christian historian would take issue with this claim, surely? The Roman Empire initially was originally threatened by Christianity, it could see the speed at which the religion was growing, and so it adopted it and used it as a system of control, often through forced conversion. It wasn't created to control the masses (whether you believe in it's "truth" or not) but it certainly HAS been used to that end and has been several times throughout history (Romans, Crusades, colonization of Africa, colonisation of the American continent, etc.). To say otherwise is... well... it's just turning a blind eye to history .

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

which bits from the KJV are you referring to?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

Originally Posted by Livia

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I'm surprised we are even allowed to call it Christmas anymore, Christmas has been sacrificed upon the alter of Political correctness and now it is called Winterval and the cards we send out are now called Holiday cards.

In fact the term "Happy Holidays" is now very prevalent. I'm surprised there isn't a Christian backlash as the last time I checked (I could be wrong) Great Britain was a Christian country with the Churches of England/Scotland/Ireland & Wales.

We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate other minority religions but allow the dilution of the official Christian faith in the process.

I would like to see Christmas celebrated as Christmas with the return of Christmas cards showing Baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary not some watered down snowscape with a few bits of holly and a yulelog......!!!!!

Originally Posted by Niamh.

We could just change the name to Xmas

Originally Posted by Livia

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

Originally Posted by Niamh.

..for Xmas dinner? No problem

[smudgie]

It would be a sad day if all our churches shut down.

I am not a religious person but I love to look at the old churches.
They give small villages a sense of community, somewhere to meet, have a sing song and perhaps discuss how to help some fellow villager out. It is not all about fire and brimstone.
Walking into York Minster gave me goosebumps, such a beautiful place.

As to religion and faith, I personally believe in good rather than god, but I respect anyone's right to their beliefs, just as long as they are peaceful and not thrust upon others.
Live and let live I say.

[arista]

No its this one From Star Trek 5

[Kyle]

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds

[arista]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds

In Star Trek 5
the God wants to Join with the Ship
Bring it closer he demands



Dirty bugger

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds

Have you not seen Taken?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Have you not seen Taken?

I haven't, I get the feeling it's a must see

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

I haven't, I get the feeling it's a must see

Yes you must, put it on your "to watch" Christmas movie list (not that it's a christmas movies but you know what I mean) you won't regret it

[arista]

[Kizzy]

Nevermind the poor philistines what about those edomites?.... wonder why jesus hated them so much?

[T*]

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Cuda

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

I know its a plain unpleasant. Out of curiosity and in the spirit of open mindedness, whats your belief in terms of the world, the universe, death , morality, theology, the scriptures, etc